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The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - Printable Version

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RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - Searcher - 26-04-2017

(26-04-2017, 09:03 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What pre-1450 vernacular urinoscopy manuscripts are known? Do they tend to have a distinctive size / layout / structure? Do they tend to have distinctive drawings interleaved with the text?


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RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - Searcher - 26-04-2017

All in one: an astrologer, a phisician, a herbalist, ...?
Zodiac man and volvelle in the Guildbook of the Barber-Surgeons of York, British Library Egerton 2572, second half of the 16th century.
[the volvelle here is surrounded by St John the Baptist, St John the Evangelist and the saints Cosmas and Damian, the patron saints of doctors and surgery.]
[Image: Eg2572%5C050v-051r.jpg]

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - bi3mw - 01-05-2017

The ring from "the nose" could also show something different than prosperity or an ecclesiastical background:

Quote:Kieckhefer, Richard (2014). Magic In The Middle Ages (2. Ed.), Cambridge University Press, pp. 102-104

... One chronicle suggests that when gems were in proximity to poison they would break out in a kind of sweat. Such notions may seem fanciful, but clearly they were meant seriously. Thus, in 1408 the duke of Burgundy had a stone set in a ring as a means for detecting poison.
Quite often the magical power of the stone itself was enchanced by that of inscriptions. One example which in many ways typifies the tendency is a fourteenth-century ring from Italy ( Fig. 10a ).The ring itself is gold. It is set with a "toadstone". This stone, which counted as precious, allegedly came from the head of a toad, though actually it was a fossil derived from a certain kind of fish. ...


[Image: ring1.png]
Toadstones were also called "Crapandina", and apparently used for some ailments ( e.g. snake-bites ). In general, stones were believed to be at least as powerful as herbs. The extraction of a toadstone is described You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in "Hortus sanitatis" (1497).

So it's not surprising that the ring is conspicuously shown towards the viewer.

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - -JKP- - 01-05-2017

[Image: attachment.php?aid=1306]

Looking at the image Marco posted, and the exorcism scene in Trinity O.2.48, it now occurs to me that the image on the right could be something similar.

I've always been puzzled by the pose, which looks like the "plant/miter" has a life of its own and is almost escaping the person's grasp. If it were a plant with magical powers, similar to Salomonis in the Trinity MS, for example an herb that ejects or protects against demons, then the angelic shape and the unusual pose might not be accidental. Shamans (tribal doctors) historically combined folk medicine and magic and this mindset was still prevalent in medieval culture, even in educated circles.

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - bi3mw - 02-05-2017

JKP: As I have posted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the herb looks like the one on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , but the pose is indeed interesting. One could assume that theriac is represented here. The root of angelica archangelica / angel's plant was one of the four main ingredients in theriac which was also called "Himmelsarznei" in german. That means "heaven's drug" in english. Unfortunately, this only fits when you look at angelica, not in usual medieval images.

Compared to the real plant, the whole thing looks like this:

[Image: angelica1.png]

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - Diane - 05-05-2017

I wonder if anyone would care to find matches for the costume the figure is wearing? As you see it has a tight collar and an opening that runs from the top of the shoulder diagonally along what - in a normal medieval European garment - would be the seam between the bodice and the sleeve.

If this costume indicates some particular profession, or class, or region, it might help narrow the field of speculation.

After all, that people hold things up isn't really unusual and the figure said to be 'spinning' isn't actually spinning - no spindle and no spinning wheel.  I guess you have to have seen how people do spin to be sure.  I suppose at a stretch you could argue that she's chaining off the warp from a warping-board of which only one peg is visible, but it would be an extremely tenuous argument, more like trying to find support for some notion than explaining what is there on the page.

So - any comparative images for the unusual costume?

D

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - -JKP- - 05-05-2017

(02-05-2017, 12:28 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP: As I have posted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the herb looks like the one on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , but the pose is indeed interesting. One could assume that theriac is represented here. The root of angelica archangelica / angel's plant was one of the four main ingredients in theriac which was also called "Himmelsarznei" in german. That means "heaven's drug" in english. Unfortunately, this only fits when you look at angelica, not in usual medieval images.

Compared to the real plant, the whole thing looks like this:

[Image: angelica1.png]

It's certainly possible that the "angel-scepter" or whatever it is the figure is holding is related to something elsewhere in the manuscript (possibly plant 13r), by name or use or some other association, but I don't think Plant 13v looks like Archangelica.


Archangelica has pinnate leaves at the base, the VMS plant doesn't have this. The VMS clumps don't look like flowers, they look like rounded leaves in tight clumps and Archangelica doesn't have this. Archangelica has umbellate flowers/seeds on a separate stem quite distant from the leaves. In contrast, the VMS plant has fruits that sit close to the leaves. The VMS plant grows in tiers (two tiers are shown on the right). Archangelica branches, but the leaves do not grow in tiers.


Here are my thoughts (from July 2013) on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I think the rounded clumps of leaves and fruits with "wings" match quite well with the branching pattern, thick leaf clumps, and fruits one finds on certain species of Euphorbia.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (some of them have much more exaggerated wings than this one).
Euphorbia You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (some are tighter clumps than this and they grow in tiers). An aerial view of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Another You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Notice how this plant specifically has five branches like the VMS plant and specifically has three fruits per cluster, like the VMS fruits on the left.


As for a possible connection to the scepter-shape, Euphorbia is named after Euphorbos, the Greek physician to an ancient king, Euphorbos wrote about plants and herbal medicine. For all we know, the person holding the "angel scepter" or plant, could be Euphorbos.

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - bi3mw - 05-05-2017

(05-05-2017, 05:56 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view...... Notice how this plant specifically has five branches like the VMS plant and specifically has three fruits per cluster, like the VMS fruits on the left.....

You're right, technically, euphorbia is a good candidate. However, I haven't seen the fruits as a physical part of the plant, but as an added, pictorial description. I admit that this approach presupposes that the author(s) wanted to offer such a possibility. - or install another hurdle, depending on how you see it.

Overall, the plant on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks very stylized. The partial brown heads on older plants might fit this illustration.

It is remarkable that in such situations I always want to look for flower heads on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to f89v1, in order to compare them against each other. Correct me, but I can't see any of them.

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - -JKP- - 05-05-2017

(05-05-2017, 10:12 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You're right, technically, euphorbia is a good candidate. However, I haven't seen the fruits as a physical part of the plant, but as an added, pictorial description. I admit that this approach presupposes that the author(s) wanted to offer such a possibility. - or install another hurdle, depending on how you see it.


I'm not sure what you mean. Many old herbal manuscripts show the fruits or seeds in a pictorial way (not just in the text). It depends on whether they are an important part of the identification or use of the plant. For example, coriander seeds are widely used as a culinary spice, and many illustrations of coriander show the seeds rather than the flowers. Ivy images often show the fruits, even if they are toxic and not used, because they are helpful to the identification.

The fruits of Euphorbia are distinctive, so they are important to the ID.

RE: The "4 Ages of Man" Folio - bi3mw - 06-05-2017

JKP: I didn't mean the traditional way of looking at plants. My idea is rahter far from it and I really believe that such pictograms are used several times.


In a sketch it looks like this

[Image: angelica2.png]
Angelica or not, I know this is extremely speculative Wink