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+--- Thread: 'P' is the key (/thread-5418.html)
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 05:58 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That said, sometimes ideas simply require time to catch wind.
How long are you expecting it to take?
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 06:06 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-03-2026, 05:58 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That said, sometimes ideas simply require time to catch wind.
How long are you expecting it to take?
I find it amusing how you can't actually argue the evidence presented so it keeps resulting in personal attacks.
I'd assume as long as a chemical analysis would take between 'Map with Ship' and p.68 of the folio. The simple test would prove me wrong and silence this entire line of inquiry. So I guess when that happens.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 06:31 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'd assume as long as a chemical analysis would take between 'Map with Ship' and p.68 of the folio. The simple test would prove me wrong and silence this entire line of inquiry. So I guess when that happens.
That may be what it will take for you to stop believing in your Marco Polo/Arctic Circle clock idea but that is not what I was asking. What I was asking was: How long do you think it will take for anyone here to start believing your idea? I think the only way people will believe it is if there is a proven translation of the text.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 07:13 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-03-2026, 06:31 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'd assume as long as a chemical analysis would take between 'Map with Ship' and p.68 of the folio. The simple test would prove me wrong and silence this entire line of inquiry. So I guess when that happens.
That may be what it will take for you to stop believing in your Marco Polo/Arctic Circle clock idea but that is not what I was asking. What I was asking was: How long do you think it will take for anyone here to start believing your idea? I think the only way people will believe it is if there is a proven translation of the text.
The answer remains the same. Once the test proves that they were, or were not, in fact stained by the same thing, the rest of my arguments (pertaining to the arctic circle/polos) also gain additional credibility- or fall apart entirely. If correct, it becomes another verifiable aspect of the book's chain of custody, thus directly relating it to the author of 'Map with Ship' and in proximity to the Polos.
What I would like for you to prove:
(1) a different geographic position can be deduced from the proto-clock (or whatever your interpretation of it is)
(2) the stains between 'Map with Ship' & VM (p.68) show no significant signs of overlap
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 07:24 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
What I would like for you to prove:
(1) a different geographic position can be deduced from the proto-clock (or whatever your interpretation of it is)
(2) the stains between 'Map with Ship' & VM (p.68) show no significant signs of overlap
1) I don't see a clock. I see a calendar. I think the calendar on f67r1 "points" to some place on Planet Earth that has a Moon that roughly divides one Earth year into about 12 parts.
2) I see no value in commenting on this one.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 09:04 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-03-2026, 07:24 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
What I would like for you to prove:
(1) a different geographic position can be deduced from the proto-clock (or whatever your interpretation of it is)
(2) the stains between 'Map with Ship' & VM (p.68) show no significant signs of overlap
1) I don't see a clock. I see a calendar. I think the calendar on f67r1 "points" to some place on Planet Earth that has a Moon that roughly divides one Earth year into about 12 parts.
2) I see no value in commenting on this one.
So in other words, you can't. Got it. Thank you.
I will not be engaging with you going forward. You have some weird internalized rage for me and this proposal that you have gone as far as attacking me both directly here and indirectly through your actions with your own content, truly inexplicable behavior. I can find no logical reason someone would put that much effort into attacking the person rather than attacking the evidence proposed. One I will allow, one I will not.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 08-03-2026
For anyone curious what a full at-scale overlay would look like between VM p68 & 'Map with Ship'
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RE: 'P' is the key - eggyk - 08-03-2026
(08-03-2026, 04:38 AM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For anyone curious what a full at-scale overlay would look like between VM p68 & 'Map with Ship'
When you say full scale, have you used the actual true scale of both pages to do this? You appear to have effectively sized the "map with ship" parchment and f68 to have the same total height, which isn't correct.
The map with ship vellum is 29cm high x 41cm wide, while You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is ~22.5cm high. So it would be more like this (my best attempt):
I've tried lots of different orientations, but there is not obvious lining up of features between the both (folds, creases, marks etc). You can always make 1 or 2 things line up, no matter the orientation, but never everything.
As for the clock idea, its interesting, but i'm not sure how the stars on the inside come into that. On reddit you stated that they represent night, i think? If so, how can the full circle represent 24hrs if night is represented in each of the 12 sections? Surely then you are representing 12 days instead, with blue representing the day sky, the red representing sunset, and the stars the night sky.
(05-03-2026, 10:55 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.View each spike/point as an indication of an hourly mark; there are 12 in total like a clock.
--Assuming it functions on 2 twelve-hour cycles (indicated by the Solar/Lunar imagery and the accompanying Mongolian (?) 4-point 'full stop' at the 12 o'clock position)
Why not assume one 24 hour cycle, with each segment representing 2 hours? If you assume a 12 hour system, are you assuming an area/time/date that has the moon dissapear for 3 hours per day, and then a night lasting 3 hours?
If you are doing this, you must assume that it begins from sunrise and goes clockwise. That means the first three hours of daylight must have no moon (3am-6am), then the moon is visible for 9 hours (6am-3pm), after that the moon becomes invisible for 3 hours (3pm-6pm), then becomes visible again for 9 hours (6pm-3am).
If you assume it begins at sunset, the moon is visible at all times other than 12pm-3pm, and the sun is visible at all times other than 12am-3am.
If you assume a 24 hour system beginning at sunrise at 4am, the sun would always be visible and the moon would be visible for 18 hours per day (only during the day, not at night)
If you assume a 24 hour system beginning at sunset at 10pm, you would have he moon visible 24 hours a day, and a night time period of around 10pm-4am.
Does somewhere in the arctic, or anywhere else, match any of these patterns?
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 08-03-2026
(08-03-2026, 07:22 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've tried lots of different orientations, but there is not obvious lining up of features between the both (folds, creases, marks etc). You can always make 1 or 2 things line up, no matter the orientation, but never everything.
I would have to argue that it's still more than nothing though, no? Even with variations, bottom right staining is consistent. Also, you have adjusted the right margins such that they are not congruent. If the argument was that the papers don't align, surely those misalignment would be more likely to be on the left hand side, not the page end I think- particularly because they both have some length to them.
But in your variation, the center crease more perfectly aligns with the right border of the board on 'Map with Ship' and the superficial vertical lines on the right hand side also align more closely in addition to the staining still matching.
So while our scales may vary, they both arguably indicate consistencies. I'm not trying to reach, I am simply absorbing what you're showing and showing how I feel it still isn't contradictory evidence.
Quote:Why not assume one 24 hour cycle, with each segment representing 2 hours? If you assume a 12 hour system, are you assuming an area/time/date that has the moon dissapear for 3 hours per day, and then a night lasting 3 hours?
Simply because there is solar and lunar representation, 12 points, the full stop, and the fact that clocks appear around this time as well. I feel this allows for the possibility that that's what we're seeing. It was the only interpretation I've seen so far that produces any real world equivalent. It's not like we don't have evidence of earlier solar/lunar encodings in history either- in fact, this would be maybe one of the latest.
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Quote:If you are doing this, you must assume that it begins from sunrise and goes clockwise. That means the first three hours of daylight must have no moon (3am-6am), then the moon is visible for 9 hours (6am-3pm), after that the moon becomes invisible for 3 hours (3pm-6pm), then becomes visible again for 9 hours (6pm-3am).
If you assume it begins at sunset, the moon is visible at all times other than 12pm-3pm, and the sun is visible at all times other than 12am-3am.
If you assume a 24 hour system beginning at sunrise at 4am, the sun would always be visible and the moon would be visible for 18 hours per day (only during the day, not at night)
If you assume a 24 hour system beginning at sunset at 10pm, you would have he moon visible 24 hours a day, and a night time period of around 10pm-4am.
Does somewhere in the arctic, or anywhere else, match any of these patterns?
While not an exact match, although a closer one may found by someone more refined in geo-positioning, there is in fact a close match with:
Alaska (Solstice): In Anchorage, the sun rises around 4:20 a.m. and sets at 11:42 p.m
Russia (summer Solstice): Moscow: Sunrise is roughly around 3:45 AM, and sunset is around 9:15 PM (approx. 17 hours, 30 minutes of daylight).
Norway (summer Solstice): Southern Norway (e.g., Oslo)- Extremely long days with nearly 20 hours of daylight; sunrise is around 03:50–04:00, and sunset is around 22:40–23:00.
The hours I have proposed fall within this range all winter for all the listed region-Solstice was just the note. Excluding months where there is no night, or day, this method of analysis is quantifiable.
I'm sorry- I'm not going to try and view it as a 24 hour cycle because it is removed from my argument and trying to provide evidence for something unrelated is ineffective.
RE: 'P' is the key - eggyk - 08-03-2026
(08-03-2026, 08:19 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would have to argue that it's still more than nothing though, no? Even with variations, bottom right staining is consistent. Also, you have adjusted the right margins such that they are not congruent. If the argument was that the papers don't align, surely those misalignment would be more likely to be on the left hand side, not the page end I think- particularly because they both have some length to them.
But in your variation, the center crease more perfectly aligns with the right border of the board on 'Map with Ship' and the superficial vertical lines on the right hand side also align more closely in addition to the staining.
So while our scales may vary, they both arguably indicate consistencies. I'm not trying to reach, I am simply absorbing what you're showing and showing how I feel it still isn't contradictory evidence.
No, it is not more than nothing. If you take any two creased/damaged pieces of parchment and try to align creases, marks, and folds you will always be able to match things.
How am I meant to align the paper correctly? I was matching the bottom edge of the paper to the fold on the map parchment, which means the right side doesnt align. If I rotate the image to align with the right side, the bottom no longer matches the fold line. The scale is important here by the way, you can't just plop the image at any scale and say "look it matches!".
Your argument is that they match, but they don't. My point is that no matter how you do this, no orientation matches beyond both having some kind of stain on the right edge (and the stains do not match). I genuinely had a look, tried it upside down, reversed, flipped, stretched, and more and never could I get a match. To say they genuinely match is a reach, im sorry.
(08-03-2026, 08:19 PM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While not an exact match, although a closer one may found by someone more refined in geo-positioning, there is in fact a close match with:
Alaska (Solstice): In Anchorage, the sun rises around 4:20 a.m. and sets at 11:42 p.m
Russia (summer Solstice): Moscow: Sunrise is roughly around 3:45 AM, and sunset is around 9:15 PM (approx. 17 hours, 30 minutes of daylight).
Norway (summer Solstice): Southern Norway (e.g., Oslo)- Extremely long days with nearly 20 hours of daylight; sunrise is around 03:50–04:00, and sunset is around 22:40–23:00.
I'm sorry- I'm not going to try and view it as a 24 hour cycle because it is removed from my argument and trying to provide evidence for something unrelated is ineffective.
You're talking about matches for the sunrise and sunset and including days with 5-6 hours of no sun, but the 12 hour clock idea suggests only 3 hours. Again, if you are doing this method, it would start from sunrise or sunset, so you would need to give examples where there is 18 hour sun and 18 hour moon, offset by exactly 12 hours.