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+--- Thread: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" (/thread-5012.html)
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Petrasti - 03-11-2025
Unfortunately, I have not yet found any of these manuscripts to see how often the exchange takes place.
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - nablator - 03-11-2025
Even without an exchange, in Latin manuscripts, some scribes had inconsistent "a" shapes, sometimes close or indistinguishable from "o", very much like the Voynichese "o" when the second stroke is straight or slightly curved to the left.
Random examples from Herzog von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha - Chart. B 372 [last quarter of the 15th c.]:
artis
exaltari
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. all "o" and all "a" are sharp at the top and the second stroke is straight. Only difference between "o" and "a": the second stroke finishes slightly lower with a "tail" if it's an "a".
sol... doch got
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Jorge_Stolfi - 04-11-2025
(02-11-2025, 11:38 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have looked at some short examples in Arabic and Hebrew (without reference to these languages). However, it is noticeable that the inflected words change the word stems at the end of the word as well as the swapped vowel.
Yes, besides vowel changes there may be prefixes and suffixes. The most well-known prefix is qo-⌫⌫⌫ "al-", the definite article ("the"); which may turn into "ar-" or "as-" or "az-" depending on the first consonant of the root. When transcribed with Latin letters it is usually hyphenated, but in the Arabic script it is joined to the following word.
Quote: Perhaps you could send me a short example of what you mean exactly?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are some of the words derived from the root *K*T*B*, which has the general meaning of "to write". I gather that there are many more. Maybe not nine billion, but...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Petrasti - 05-11-2025
I think I somewhat understand the structure you see in Voynich and also the tendency of what we call inflectional language. However, the exchange from a and o unfortunately does not behave like in your Arabic example. However, the trend with prefixes and suffixes is also recognisable to me. Have you already found words that might make an Arabic origin more explainable? The drawings are not exactly typically Arabic or oriental. Whether qo could actually stand for "al" I can't believe at the moment, for the following reason: The word qo appears too rarely in the plant descriptions if you assume that ar/az or perhaps just ‘a’ stand for the same article, the frequency increases. However, the following problem arises, but also a possible explanation for a system that repeats again and again.
Let's assume that the word qo is a prefix maybe "al"
Let's take a less frequently occurring word to get fewer hits
qoeees
if qo is the article we find eees as the baseword stem (and this is correct because we find it 9 times in the manuscript)
we find the baseword stem eees also with the following prefixes:
oeees, seees, cheees, dyeees, oteees, c+heees, soteees, yc+heees, soeees, choeees,
lkeees, qokeees, ctheees, qoteees, otoreees
the word otoreees is for sure the connetion between o tor eees, we can delete it from the list
if we assume that qo could be the article then we have to find a solution for all other prefixes or we assume that all other words have nothing to do with the baseword stem eees. Which I think is impossible, as the system of prefixes repeats itself over and over again.
and we can also check and see that they are the same words, since none of the words were again written with qo at the beginning in the manuscript.
oeees but not as qooeees, seees but not as qoseees, cheees but not as qocheees ...
But what we see here is that the word qo is a perfect marker to identify base word stems. (with some exceptions)
above we find also two letters in front of the basewort stem as for example oteees in the manuscript. What is fantastic here is that we can prove that the letter t also serves as a prefix and does not always introduce an independent word. This proof is provided as follows:
we find the baseword eees an oteees but never teees. So we can see that the word teees ist no a seperat word with prefix o it is a prefix o and t with the baseword stem eees.
However, these examples show that the words mutate in the initial letter or at least it shows the special structure of Voynich in the initial letter.
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Jorge_Stolfi - 05-11-2025
(05-11-2025, 09:24 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, the exchange from a and o unfortunately does not behave like in your Arabic example. However, the trend with prefixes and suffixes is also recognisable to me. Have you already found words that might make an Arabic origin more explainable?
I don't think the language is Semitic (Arabic Hebrew, Ge'ez). I was just giving an example of a language where letters anywhere in the word can be changed while preserving the basic meaning.
(05-11-2025, 09:24 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The drawings are not exactly typically Arabic or oriental.
Indeed, the vellum and writing instruments are European, the character shapes, writing direction, and parag layout are European, the nymph hairdos and hats and (rare) dresses are European, the castles are European, the Zodiac sign icons are European ... But that only shows that the Scribe was European.
On the other hand, the absence of any recognizable European symbols or diagrams (alchemical, astrological, kabbalistic, religious, etc.) suggests that the ultimate origin of the contents is not European. Even the depiction of the Zodiac as 24 x 15 = 360 "things" is not a common European choice. If the person who hired the Scribe was European, he must have been taking the contents from non-European sources.
IMHO, the assumption that the Author was European and the language was "European", just because of all those superficial elements are Euroepan, is the basic fatal mistake which has prevented any real progress in the decipherment for the last century.
I think that old Baresh, writing to Kircher, was closer to the truth than practically all the Voynichologists who came after him. Starting with Raphael Mnishovsky...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Petrasti - 05-11-2025
Hi stoff,
Given the grammatical and figurative systems in the manuscript, what linguistic direction do you consider conceivable? I consider a Romance language rather unlikely, and I currently see nothing that would be typically Arabic / Hebrew or asian.
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - ReneZ - 06-11-2025
(05-11-2025, 11:23 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Given the grammatical and figurative systems in the manuscript, what linguistic direction do you consider conceivable? I consider a Romance language rather unlikely, and I currently see nothing that would be typically Arabic / Hebrew or asian.
The question of which language could be conceivable, depends entirely on 'how this language would have been converted into the Voynich MS text'.
Most people will automatically assume some more or less elaborate form of character-by-character substitution. For that, all languages with regular consonant-vowel distribution will fail.
As soon as the substitution method starts deviating more from 'simple substitution', for example using lots of nulls, or a verbose substitution, all languages become equally possible, because the characteristic traces will disappear.
At best, it is an all or nothing situation.
In general, I would consider Arabic (which is a writing system used for different languages) or Hebrew a bit more likely, simply because these have not received anywhere near the same attention.
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Aga Tentakulus - 06-11-2025
Why should I stick to a language for which there is no reference?
But I have references for German and a kind of Latin.
For example, why do I find German spelling in a Latin text? Even if you could say it's pure coincidence, is it really?
The ‘sz’ as a double ‘ss’ (Essig). Actually normal. The ending is normal, and it even has an article. What more could you want?
Think about it.
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Jorge_Stolfi - 06-11-2025
(05-11-2025, 11:23 PM)Petrasti Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Given the grammatical and figurative systems in the manuscript, what linguistic direction do you consider conceivable?
My best guess is that it is any one of the many East Asian languages where most "words" are just one syllable long. They include all the 50 or so "dialects" of Chinese, and also Vietnamese, Thai, Khmer (Cambodian), Lao, Burmese, and Tibetan, and probably several other minor ones.
This theory was first proposed in the late late 1900s by linguist and voynichologist Jacques Guy (one of the designers of the EVA transcription system). He changed his mind soon after, but then I found more evidence that supported that theory. And my conviction has only gotten stronger since then.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The vowel exchange "a" to "o" - Petrasti - 06-11-2025
Hi ReneZ, it`s strange that after so much time nobody could decipher the language, but I find it just as strange too, that it could not be deciphered with today's technology. Although I still hope for a language from the grammatically recurring system. if it is an encoded Hebrew or Arabian, then Stolfi system with prefix-unfix-suffix would be a possible structure.