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+--- Thread: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity (/thread-4919.html)
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - R. Sale - 09-09-2025
Visual simplicity may be appropriate to describe an unsophisticated artistic style, but it does not take into account the unrecognized structural sophistication employed by the artist in the initial parts of the VMs zodiac sequence. The interpretation is based on heraldry.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Jorge_Stolfi - 10-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 10:26 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The interpretation is based on heraldry.
You mean the decorative patterns on the tubs? Maybe...
But I don't think those designs were referring to specific blasons. I think that, at most, he may have tried to mock that general type of decoration. Just as he seems to have had fun inventing hats, hairdos, and dresses. And elsewhere he invented castles, with plans and merlons loosely taken from real castles.
All the best, --jorge
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - R. Sale - 10-09-2025
Starting with the outer ring of VMs Pisces, the designs on various tubs are comparable to patterns used in armorial heraldry: vertical stripes, horizonal stripes, diagonal stripes, chevrons, circles (roundels), rings (annulets). There are also a few examples that do not work so well. The objective is to introduce the idea of heraldry and also to maintain some ambiguity.
Heraldic blazons are a combination of pattern and tincture, so unless the cross-hatching on the stripes is interpreted according to Petra Sancta, there is no tincture (color) designated. One problem is that Petra Sancta is anachronistic. Also problematic is that the cross-hatching is always perpendicular to the stripe. Makes for a strange set of chevrons.
Things are a bit different on VMs White Aries because of all the painting that's been done. Solid color shields are heraldically valid. The interesting part, however, involves the two patterns with alternating blue stripes. Identification of the pattern depends on the orientation of the striped patterns, and the natural thing to do seems be to orient the image so the respective nymph is vertical. While this is valid, it yields nothing of particular significance.
In addition to armorial heraldry, the church made use of heraldic identifications in the designation of various ranks and orders through the colors of ecclesiastical hats. Red galeros for cardinals, green for abbots, white for Premonstratensians.
In the inner ring of VMs White Aries, the nymph in the blue-striped tub also has a reddish hat. A red hat (galero) and a blue-striped armorial insignia - these are clear cues to historical identification. However, identification relies of recognition and recognition requires previous exposure to the relevant information. Otherwise, there is nothing.
An alternate interpretation of the orientation of the blue-striped patterns can be seen if all the tendencies for radial alignment are eliminated. In the non-radial interpretation, both striped patterns roughly correspond to the standard diagonal design of a heraldic bend. The existence of this second separate interpretation is a clear example of intentional duality.
While church history is replete with cardinals, and blue-striped insignias are not uncommon, the combination of the two elements has a very limited and specific set of interpretations, belonging to the Fieschi popes and cardinals from Genoa.
The blazon of the Fieschi insignia is bendy argent et azure. It predates the VMs parchment, whereas insignias for the majority of popes were back filled much later (17th C.) It also happens that Sinibaldo Fieschi, as Pope Innocent IV, initiated the tradition of the cardinal's red galero. He made several of his relatives cardinals, including Ottobuono, who was later elected pope as Adrian V, but he died before installation. Relevance to the VMs era is further enhanced by the fact that Pope Innocent IV approved the original foundation of the original Poor Clares, and during the first part of the 15th C. there was the revival and reform of the Coletine Poor Clares by Colette of Corbie.
Beyond these visual factors there are a number of structural confirmations which were built into the illustration such as the proper hierarchical positioning of pope and cardinal in the celestial spheres, and the placement of both characters in the favored, upper right heraldic quadrant.
Further confirmation through the use of heraldic canting is found in the placement of tubs with scale-like patterns in the outer ring of Pisces and the inner ring of Dark Aries, Those two patterns structurally correspond in quadrant and in sphere with the two blue-striped patterns of White Aries. The heraldic term for these scale patterns (heraldic furs) is papelonny which is a canting pun on the word 'pape' which is French for 'pope'. There is no problem in finding the structural elements, the difficulty results from the failure to recover the proper heraldic terminology.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Koen G - 10-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 02:35 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(09-09-2025, 01:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My view remains that the VM painter did, at times, attempt this kind of shading/highlighting. But they did it so poorly that the end result looks messy or bizarre
You're showing great leniency here :-)
Well, we can't know for sure.
I have little doubt about it. The painter knows how to color in a surface, as in the opaque flowers. Only when there are vertical lines (like in the fabric), you get this vertical striping in the paint. See for example the flower on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (top): this is someone experimenting with shading, but failing. For comparison, I include the flower on the verso, f15v, where the pen lines are clearer. (Maybe the same technique was attempted here in the faded yellow?)
See also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (bottom): the petals, which were presumably even-colored in the example, are opaque. But where there is more depth, like in the grooves on the calyx and the buds, shading is attempted. Both are awful: there is absolutely no need to invent a separate "heavy" painter when everything can be explained by one bad painter attempting to match different techniques.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - ReneZ - 10-09-2025
Okay.... I can see that these are just about possible, but they are more like on/off rather than dark/light.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - oshfdk - 10-09-2025
The more I look at the paint job, the less I understand what happened. For example, the red insides of the flower above. Each circle is ~0.7 mm wide probably. The painter was very careful avoiding the circles and painting in between. Depending on what tool was used to apply the paint, I would call this a very delicate job. The result is bad and ugly, but certainly performed with some precision. Is it possible that the perceived sloppiness of the paint job is a combination of the scale (it's easy to forget how small the details are) and lack of a good tool to apply the paint?
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Jorge_Stolfi - 10-09-2025
(10-09-2025, 07:18 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Starting with the outer ring of VMs Pisces, the designs on various tubs are comparable to patterns used in armorial heraldry: vertical stripes, horizonal stripes, diagonal stripes, chevrons, circles (roundels), rings (annulets). There are also a few examples that do not work so well.
Interesting! I agree that it is quite plausible that the Scribe was thinking of heraldic patterns when he decorated those tubs. Heraldry surely occupied quite a bit of prime real estate in people's minds at the time.
However, I don't think it is likely that the patterns referred to specific blazons. For one thing, as you observe, some of the patterns seem anomalous. Some of the tubs are undecorated, and some have only a wavy or dotted line along the edge. And the fact that the artist soon dropped the tub decorations, and the tubs themselves shortly after, tells me that they were not important or meaningful, but just decoration.
Quote:Things are a bit different on VMs White Aries because of all the painting that's been done. [...] In addition to armorial heraldry, the church made use of heraldic identifications in the designation of various ranks and orders through the colors of ecclesiastical hats. Red galeros for cardinals, green for abbots, white for Premonstratensians.
Alas, the painting on the VMS was almost certainly done decades or centuries after the drawings. Except perhaps for the light yellow paint, as seen in the core of most stars and hair of many nymphs, which may have been applied by the original Scribe himself. So the colors will not tell us anything useful; quite the opposite, they are "loud noise" that only distracts and confuses.
Another think to keep in mind is that many pages of the VMS, including many in Zodiac, were "restored" by some later owner, who chose to "enhance" the illustrations with some spurious details. On f70v1 (Aries Dark), for example, the scalloped ground under the goat and the outline of the outer nymph at 06:30 are probably original, while the "robot tentacle" of the inner nymph at 10:30 and the double tail of the outer star at10:30 were probably later additions. Everything else, including most of the tub decrations, may be original or retraced/added, I can't tell.
In the inner ring of VMs White Aries, the nymph in the blue-striped tub also has a reddish hat. A red hat (galero) and a blue-striped armorial insignia - these are clear cues to historical identification. However, identification relies of recognition and recognition requires previous exposure to the relevant information. Otherwise, there is nothing.
Quote: While church history is replete with cardinals, and blue-striped insignias are not uncommon, the combination of the two elements has a very limited and specific set of interpretations, belonging to the Fieschi popes and cardinals from Genoa.
Apart from the color problem, I doubt that the Scribe would have thought of putting Church hats on female figures...
Quote:Further confirmation through the use of heraldic canting is found in the placement of tubs with scale-like patterns in the outer ring of Pisces and the inner ring of Dark Aries, [...]The heraldic term for these scale patterns (heraldic furs) is papelonny which is a canting pun on the word 'pape' which is French for 'pope'.
The Scribe was very fond of that scale-like pattern and used it extensively in the Cosmo pages, including the Nine-Rosette fold-out. He used it also in the Herbal, sometimes where it did not make sense (such as on the right half of the root of f2v). But the caveat about later additions may apply to it too.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Jorge_Stolfi - 10-09-2025
(10-09-2025, 10:34 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.there is absolutely no need to invent a separate "heavy" painter when everything can be explained by one bad painter attempting to match different techniques.
I am still unsure about how many different painters there were, but I agree that the same painter could and did apply both the solid paint like the leaves and corollas of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and and the scraggy paint on the chalices. The latter seems to have been applied with a mostly dry or worn-out brush, or some improvised instrument like a chewed-on stick.
In fact, in many places even the solid paint seems to have been applied with a quill pen, with dozens of overlapping strokes, rather than with a brush.
All the best, --jorge
(10-09-2025, 10:57 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Depending on what tool was used to apply the paint, I would call this a very delicate job.
As I noted in the other posts, in most places the "solid" paint was actually applied with a quill, with dozens of overlapping strokes. That red paint between the circles is just one example.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - R. Sale - 10-09-2025
@Jorge_Stolfi
Thanks for your reply. Indeed, it is exactly my position that heraldry is underrated.
It does seem, however, that you may not be a student of medieval heraldry or familiar with heraldic terminology. Where you said "some have only a wavy or dotted line along the edge" causes me to question your familiarity with Petra Sancta or the heraldic lines of division. Would you recognize an engrailed chief when you see one? What is a semy of roundels?
The VMs is not a manual to teach heraldry. The VMs requires a knowledge of heraldry in order to interpret the information it provides.
The basic process of creating a pattern of alternating lines is interesting. How is it done? What does it mean? How can colors be represented? If the VMs is using hatching lines to indicate color, then that is chronologically problematic. And if not, are the tub patterns in Pisces outer ring to be interpreted as if they were just black and white? Even sable and argent can lead to a valid blazon. Beats the heck out of purple and green.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Finding a valid blazon does not necessarily equate to a specific historical connection. It's the combination of armorial and ecclesiastical heraldry that makes the historical connection with the Genoese popes. Therefore, it cannot be "just decoration" when it makes a connection to historical events and realities. The whole thing is built in over three pages and the colors need to be right or it doesn't work.
The point is that visual simplicity is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. The less that is known and recognized about heraldry, the easier it is to gloss over the whole thing. It's easier to dismiss a clear presence than to ask why it is there.
*It's* there because the pope in the outer ring has a tub that is congruous with one of the highly elaborated quatrefoil rectangles that I call "Stolfi's markers".
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-09-2025
(10-09-2025, 07:29 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.causes me to question your familiarity with Petra Sancta
Actually I have been very familiar with it since about 14:33 this afternoon (local time). With the name, I mean. I just haven't had a chance to google it yet.
Quote:the colors need to be right or it doesn't work
But there is good reason to believe that the colors are not original. You mean the hatching patterns, which would represent different colors?
(10-09-2025, 07:29 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's the combination of armorial and ecclesiastical heraldry that makes the historical connection with the Genoese popes. Therefore, it cannot be "just decoration" when it makes a connection to historical events and realities
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Aries Light, Aries 2) there are three "nymphs" that could be male: in the outer band at 07:00 and 05:00, and in the inner band at 03:00. Their tubs have, respectively, no decoration, two vertical stripes along the sides, and the same plus a scalloped fringe along the top edge, Each of these three nymphs has no breasts and wears a distinctive hat, a rounded cone with a broad flat round brim. I suppose that it might have meant to be a cardinal's hat; but, from the images I have seen, this had a rounder bowl-shaped top. However, the tight-fitting dress seems quite unlike that of cardinals at the time. (IIUC until ~1465 the cardinal's robe was purple, not red; but, again, the red on the VMS dresses is not original.)
I gather that there were only two Genoese popes before the VMS was written: Innocent IV (elected in 1243) and Adrian V (elected in 1276). Both had a blazon with diagonal blue and white stripes. On Aries Light (f71r) hat could be the tub pattern of the outer nymph at 10:00, if the hatches mean blue. But she seems to be female, and has no hat. What other connection with the Genoese popes do you see?