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+--- Thread: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? (/thread-4869.html)
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - quimqu - 04-09-2025
Now that you are writting about line starts, I have recalled one thing that I observed in f88v-r2 page:
![[Image: BH3vVra.png]](https://i.imgur.com/BH3vVra.png)
You can see how the last two lines of the paragraph begin. To me, it makes no sense to almost overlap od and sq at that point. If o and s had been written first, there would be no reason for d and q to be so narrow, even overlapping the first characters—there is plenty of space on the right to write them normally. On the other hand, if o and s were added afterwards, then again… why would they have been written later in the first place? Are they a sort of positional code?
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - tavie - 04-09-2025
The bottom four lines of 10r are similar to that. An EVA o is squashed up against the y glyph for the fourth line from the bottom, and another one is squashed up against the q glyph for the third line from the bottom. The last two lines start with a squished EVA r, particularly the second from last.
The 10r ones are interesting because this is the only example of an o-o vertical pair in Herbal A (Scribe 1), and oq and oy are rare glyph combinations.
(04-09-2025, 02:39 PM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the other hand, if o and s were added afterwards, then again… why would they have been written later in the first place? Are they a sort of positional code?
If the initial glyphs have been written later, there could be several reasons. One could be that, if abbreviations and/or homophones are used, it was decided on rereading that the words weren't sufficiently clear and needed an extra boost. But we would probably expect to see this clusters more elsewhere, and we don't. And abbreviation at the start of the word is rare outside the VM, unless we think the words are reversed.
Another could be that the scribe was straying from the usually neat left margin, and the glyphs were later added to restore a straight left edge. They could be meaningful (as per above idea) or meaningless nulls. If you look at 10r, the first paragraph shows a slight slant. It's possible this continued and became more conspicuous in the second paragraph, requiring correction. I favour this explanation but we can probably find counter examples of tolerated margin slant.
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - RobGea - 04-09-2025
(04-09-2025, 02:00 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How does Voynichese compare with those languages?Just a quick parse of some word grams (count of different word grams ,not occurrences ) [word grams with single letters not counted]
culpeper (stolfi version)
4_word grams: Count: 7283
3_word grams: Count: 12256
2_word grams: Count: 14162
==========================
voynich RF1a-n
No word gram greater than 4
4_word grams: Count: 02 // [ol.shedy.qokedy.qokeedy], [shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol]
3_word grams: Count: 154
2_word grams: Count: 2346 {Edit: adjusted Count:2368}
Related post by MarcoP in thread 'recurring word sequences'--> You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - magnesium - 04-09-2025
(03-09-2025, 12:42 PM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the other hand, I can imagine a system that would predictably produce line effects as a natural byproduct of its use, and that also falls well within the range of hypotheses people already entertain about how Voynichese might have worked (along the lines of Rene's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Consider this set of specifications:
(1) Lines always break at word boundaries.
(2) Within lines, words are run together indiscriminately.
(3) Text is chunked for encoding into units consisting of one or more consonants followed by one or more vowels, with each "chunk" being encoded as a vord.
(4) It's possible to encode an isolated consonant or vowel (or isolated clusters of either), but this is done only as needed to satisfy rule (1).
(5) Vords that are similarly structured represent similarly structured "chunks," but not in a straightforward letter-by-letter way (imagine something like Naibbe encoding tables not being randomly interchangeable, but each encoding a different category of "chunk").
To keep this conversation going, I have come up with a quick modification of the Naibbe cipher that partially implements pfeaster's ideas.
1. Lines always break at word boundaries.
2. Respacing proceeds deterministically, such that plaintext bigrams are consonant-vowel, and everything else is a unigram.
3. When possible, encrypted bigrams are reused on successive lines.
The cipher is otherwise identical to what I have previously described. I have encrypted Book 16 of Pliny's Natural History and the Divina Commedia this way:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Also note a new feature: The "respaced" versions randomly take out 3% of spaces from the idealized ciphertext, which is meant to simulate ambiguous spacing. This also has the effect of generating a small proportion of 3-grams and 4-grams, which is very handy for generating lots of word types efficiently.
I have not yet performed any pfeaster-style analysis of placement-dependent glyph variation, nor do I have time to do so over the next few days. But I wanted to get this over to you all as soon as I could.
I want to quickly mention pfeaster's Point 5, the structurally similar chunks. I agree that this would be ideal; this is why I set the Naibbe cipher's unigram word type assignments to do just this. But when I was creating the Naibbe cipher, this struck me as a challenging problem that bled into a decryption attempt. So instead, I opted to make some initial prefix and suffix assignments so that I could proceed directly to characterization of the cipher's behavior.
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - Jorge_Stolfi - 04-09-2025
(04-09-2025, 03:57 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.voynich RF1a-n
No word gram greater than 4
4_word grams: Count: 02 // [ol.shedy.qokedy.qokeedy], [shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol]
3_word grams: Count: 154
2_word grams: Count: 2346
That is the number of distinct n-word phrases that repeat at least once in the whole VMS, is that right?
All the best, --jorge
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - RobGea - 04-09-2025
. Yep .
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - nablator - 04-09-2025
(04-09-2025, 03:57 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.4_word grams: Count: 02
Actually just 1: ol.shedy.qokedy.qokeedy.
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - quimqu - 04-09-2025
(04-09-2025, 03:57 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.culpeper (stolfi version)
4_word grams: Count: 7283
3_word grams: Count: 12256
2_word grams: Count: 14162
==========================
voynich RF1a-n
No word gram greater than 4
4_word grams: Count: 02 // [ol.shedy.qokedy.qokeedy], [shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol]
3_word grams: Count: 154
2_word grams: Count: 2346
This does not look good at all
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - RobGea - 04-09-2025
"shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol"
C:\Users\ ... \Voynich\Transcriptions\RF\RF1a-n.txt (2 hits)
Line 2817: <f77v.11,+P0> qockhy.dol.chdy.dsheedal.qokal.chedy.dal.shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol,chy
Line 3405: <f84r.37,@P1> qoteedy.qokol.otedy.shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol.dam
@quimqu, here is the code for how i parsed culpeper.
stolfigrams.txt (Size: 1.22 KB / Downloads: 9)
and for RF1a-n , Count for 2gram adjustred to: 2368, using this code , updated previous post.
word_ngrams_D.txt (Size: 1.41 KB / Downloads: 6)
RE: Can LAAFU effects be modeled? - quimqu - 04-09-2025
(04-09-2025, 06:41 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol"
C:\Users\ ... \Voynich\Transcriptions\RF\RF1a-n.txt (2 hits)
Line 2817: <f77v.11,+P0> qockhy.dol.chdy.dsheedal.qokal.chedy.dal.shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol,chy
Line 3405: <f84r.37,@P1> qoteedy.qokol.otedy.shedy.qokeedy.dal.ol.dam
@quimqu, here is the code for how i parsed culpeper.
No no, I meant that this not look good for Voynichese to be a language..