+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: Month names collection / metastudy (/thread-4751.html)
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - nablator - 15-06-2025
(Yesterday, 09:58 AM)davidma Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it is quite clearly a circumflex accent
Maybe but not the usual ones on a e i o u. This is a 14th century manuscript.
Wikipedia Wrote:The circumflex first appeared in written French in the 16th century.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Aga Tentakulus - 15-06-2025
Example
Abrill, May, Augst, more, Yuni9,
page 5
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Aga Tentakulus - 15-06-2025
A typical feature of Lombard, which is also found in neighbouring Romance dialects, Romansh and French, is the palatalisation of the stressed Latin ū to /yː/ʏ/: Müür, tüss “wall, everything” (Latin mūru(m), totus); Tuscan or Italian muro, tutto, and ō to /øː/œ/: Röda, incö “wheel, today” (Latin rota, hinc hodie; Tuscan/Italian ruota, oggi).
As in the neighbouring Romance dialects, in Romansh and French, final vowels are apocopated with the exception of /a/, for example mund, mond “world” (from Latin mundu(m); cf. Tuscan/Italian mondo).
Lombard commonly preserves Latin /u/, for example cur “to run” (Latin currere, but Tuscan and therefore Italian correre); tur “tower” (Latin turri(m), but Tuscan/Italian torre). The raising of Latin /o/ to /u/ is also common, as in the neighbouring varieties, compare pudè, pudé, pudì “can” (from Vulgar Latin potere for Classical Latin posse; cf. Italian potere).
There are so many details to consider before making a decision.
The first. What was it really like around 1400?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 15-06-2025
(10 hours ago)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wikipedia Wrote:The circumflex first appeared in written French in the 16th century.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Wait, this is important, right? In the same Wiki article, mai is even given as an example of a word that would need the circumflex. The idea is that these were once diphthongs (in pronunciation) but had now become only digraphs (in writing) that were pronounced as a monophthong vowel. So something that was formerly pronounced as English "may", in French became something like English "meh". (Very approximately).
In other words, the use of the circumflex in "may" matches that of Jacques Dubois and presumably other grammarians writing in the 16th century. If this is true, the earliest dating for the month names is the first half of the 16th century.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - nablator - 15-06-2025
(7 hours ago)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In other words, the use of the circumflex in "may" matches that of Jacques Dubois and presumably other grammarians writing in the 16th century. If this is true, the earliest dating for the month names is the first half of the 16th century.
But the manuscript is dated 1359-1360... Wikipedia is wrong.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - R. Sale - 15-06-2025
Here's "May" with a dot. Northern France (?) · 15th century (2nd third?)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 15-06-2025
(5 hours ago)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But the manuscript is dated 1359-1360... Wikipedia is wrong.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any circonflex in those examples.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - nablator - 15-06-2025
(5 hours ago)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(5 hours ago)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But the manuscript is dated 1359-1360... Wikipedia is wrong.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any circonflex in those examples.
Strictly speaking, because the y instead of i is not allowed by some 16th century grammarian? But what else could it be?
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 15-06-2025
You mean the stroke top right of the y? Isn't that just the continuation of the descender looping up?
(I'm feeling like I'm missing something obvious, apologies if that's the case).
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - nablator - 15-06-2025
(5 hours ago)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You mean the stroke top right of the y? Isn't that just the continuation of the descender looping up?
I'm the one missing the obvious, sorry. It is not specific to may, there are other y written like that: henry on f.7r, samedy on f.7v, d'aubigny on f.8r, Roy on f.8v... all of them? So, not a circumflex.
Also all the y in the book of hours are dotted:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.