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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: How is [x] used in medieval German? (/thread-4033.html)
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - cvetkakocj@rogers.com - 23-07-2023
(23-07-2023, 01:08 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."Bocks" transgressing into "pox" is a linguistic phenomenon. Pox being used as an euphemism for Gotts is, I believe, a cultural one.According to my research, pox, pronounced as POH, is a wrongly spelled BOH which is a Slavic word for God. P was often used instead of B, like Czeck PAN (Lord) and Bosnian BAN (a title of a ruler, Lord). PAN was also ancient Venetic god, depicted with a male goat's head, known in Greece and in Egypt. By the way, Greece in the ancient times extended at least to the present Slovenian city of Koper which was named Agida - goat town. German Steinbock as a Zodiac sign is also spelled as Steinpock in some Swabian manuscripts. There is a story in Trento region, also in Slovenian Alps, about the Steinbock with a golden horn, which was a medieval word for God who was luring the hunters to their mystical death.
The legend about the Golden horn has its origin in Greek myths, but it was reworked in the Middle Ages, when the Zodiac sign Capricorn was named Steinbock in German and Kozorog in Slovenian. Since all these mythological creatures share the image of male goat, it can be assumed that they all relate to the ancient Venetic god Pan.
It is possible that the medieval writers who were rewriting the ancient Greek myths brought back the ancient Venetic god Pan to allude to the Armenian (Nestorian) Apostolic Church, since the Patriarchate of Aquileia was once part of that Church, which had great influence on the Paulicians, Bogomils and Catars, as well as other pre-Protestant religious fractions.
This explanation can explain why POX was used as a swear word and why the devil was depicted as a black goat.
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - ReneZ - 23-07-2023
Potz as an alternative for 'Gottes' in German has been used since the 15th century, and while I remember reading that Potz and Pox are closely related in this context, I just don't remember where. This probably dates back to the discussions surrounding the Mondragone paper of 2012.
In any case, and for what it's worth, the entire context of this page, including the goat drawing in the margin, makes me favour the more literal meaning of a goat's liver.
I look forward what you (Koen) and Marco will still discover.
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - Anton - 23-07-2023
(23-07-2023, 01:08 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not sure if I understand you here. When they say something like "pox pauch", i.e. God's belly, how did pox come to mean God? I would just see it as a minced version: pox sounds like gotts, so it is used instead. There is no thematic connection between God and a "bock" or anything similar.
Exactly, no thematic connection. That's exactly what Hughes (quoted by Schwerhoff) is writing about in the quote that I cited.
I guess pox is not intended to mean God, it is intended to substitute God. When one exclaims "for shit's sake!", shit is not assumed to mean "God", it just is brought in to substitute God.(23-07-2023, 01:08 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Therefore, it seems very unlikely that the person who wrote the marginalia decided to swear on the page
A swear would be entirely possible if part of idle pen probing process. If contextually linked to the other portions of the page, then, of course, it would be less probable. I think it will stay undecided at least until a plausible reading is accepted for the last few characters of this line.
(23-07-2023, 02:09 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.According to my research, pox, pronounced as POH, is a wrongly spelled BOH which is a Slavic word for God.
Indeed, bog is proto-Slavic for "god", and many modern Slavic languages derive from that. However, it ascends to proto-Indo-European word which means "to bestow" so any parallels with goats (be that Germanic similarly-sounding "bock" or otherwise) seem far-fetched.
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - Koen G - 23-07-2023
(23-07-2023, 04:22 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Exactly, no thematic connection. That's exactly what Hughes (quoted by Schwerhoff) is writing about in the quote that I cited.
Usually when a word is replaced by one thematically disconnected, they will sound similar, and the similar sound (usually the vowel) will drive the replacement.
Fuck -> fudge
Damn -> darn
God -> gosh
Jesus -> jeez
Christ -> Crikey
French sacré Dieux -> sacré bleu
The sacré bleu is a good example.
Dieux -> bleu
Gotts -> pox
Here's a whole list in English: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
So I think "pox [body part]" is a good example of a minced oath. Whether or not we call it like that has no effect on the interpretation of the VM fragment, of course, this is merely about terminology.
Anyway, after having gone through various stages of conviction and research, I am currently with Rene on this. We know that the marginalia writer did have recipes of some kind on his mind when writing "so nim...", so there is some positive indication for the literal liver interpretation to fit in the same context. Additionally, I don't think it's very likely that a literate scribe will write down the kind of expletive usually reserved for boorish, ridiculous or rejectable characters in carnival plays. I do agree that we can't rule out either interpretation, but literal liver has a stronger case right now.
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - Anton - 23-07-2023
Either way, the remainder of the line should fit into one context or the other. With these two quite distinct variants (a liver and a swear), it's a pity that the entire phrase still fails to be reconstructed.
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - Aga Tentakulus - 04-08-2023
It is surely called "God's book" (Bible) and not "bauch". Here the shift in tone is in front.
"grind" = skull.
Jetz gits eis uff de grind. Is equivalent to "now there's one on the nut".
"jetzt gibt es eins auf die Nuss"
Bocksgrind = Sturkopf / Dickschädel
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - Aga Tentakulus - 09-08-2023
Other examples in use with "x" would be Häx, hex and hax. Witch and hock.
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To the word "potz" by Rene, is still in use today.
It is called "potz blitz und dunner".
In the application as an example, "ohh, Potz Blitz und Donner, already finished?"
The meaning, quick as lightning and all at once.
Die Bedeutung, Schnell wie ein Blitz und das auf einen Schlag.
RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - proto57 - 29-09-2023
(22-07-2023, 11:12 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was assuming that everyone knows, but perhaps not...
There has been quite a discussion on the word 'poxleber' in the old forum, as Rich Santacoloma used it as an argument that the MS is a modern fake.
Without going into all that, the term 'poxleber' was argued to be first used as an expletive in the work of Hans Sachs. In fact, it was used already before, in the Festnachtspiele of Hans Folz.
I always considered (without knowing for certain) that use of a word as an expletive implies that the word in its regular meaning should already have existed earlier.
In any case, a reader at Rich's blog wrote this:
Quote:Here’s an older example of “poxleber”:
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This may take a while to load. The word is on p. 89. It’s from a 1503 law of the city of Kitzbühel (Tyrol) and here clearly just means a goat’s liver, not a curse as in the Hans Sachs play. Still not old enough for the C14 date of the VMS, but about 50 years older than the Sachs example.
Hi Rene: Thank you for the mention, and the update. I had forgotten about that reference (by a Lars Dietz). I should add it to my blog post it is commenting on. All the best, Rich.
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RE: How is [x] used in medieval German? - Battler - 30-09-2023
(23-07-2023, 02:09 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-07-2023, 01:08 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."Bocks" transgressing into "pox" is a linguistic phenomenon. Pox being used as an euphemism for Gotts is, I believe, a cultural one.According to my research, pox, pronounced as POH, is a wrongly spelled BOH which is a Slavic word for God. P was often used instead of B, like Czeck PAN (Lord) and Bosnian BAN (a title of a ruler, Lord). PAN was also ancient Venetic god, depicted with a male goat's head, known in Greece and in Egypt. By the way, Greece in the ancient times extended at least to the present Slovenian city of Koper which was named Agida - goat town. German Steinbock as a Zodiac sign is also spelled as Steinpock in some Swabian manuscripts. There is a story in Trento region, also in Slovenian Alps, about the Steinbock with a golden horn, which was a medieval word for God who was luring the hunters to their mystical death.
The legend about the Golden horn has its origin in Greek myths, but it was reworked in the Middle Ages, when the Zodiac sign Capricorn was named Steinbock in German and Kozorog in Slovenian. Since all these mythological creatures share the image of male goat, it can be assumed that they all relate to the ancient Venetic god Pan.
It is possible that the medieval writers who were rewriting the ancient Greek myths brought back the ancient Venetic god Pan to allude to the Armenian (Nestorian) Apostolic Church, since the Patriarchate of Aquileia was once part of that Church, which had great influence on the Paulicians, Bogomils and Catars, as well as other pre-Protestant religious fractions.
This explanation can explain why POX was used as a swear word and why the devil was depicted as a black goat.
Even if Bog was indeed pronounced Boh in some Slovenian dialects in the early 15th century (or even earlier, if this manuscript is a copy of some earlier manuscript), no language whose speakers would have been in contact with Slovenian speakers is written using x for the h sound, at least not in the Latin script, which this clearly is. So this Pox being a poorly written Boh makes absolutely no sense.
Also, the West Slavic word Pan which means mr. or The LORD, has nothing to do with the god Pan, which, by the way, was Greek, and not Venetic. I also don't think Pan was ever depicted as a goat - that was instead the Egyptian deity of Banebdjeded, the Ram god. Then in the 19th century, occultists confused Banedbjeded, Pan, and Baphomet (originally a French misspelling of Mahomet, ie. the prophet Muhammad) to create the Satanic he-goat.
And Pox as a swear word is most likely just a minced word for Gott, similar to Bleu instead of Dieu (sacré Dieu -> sacrebleu) in French.