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+--- Thread: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? (/thread-3929.html)
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - Aga Tentakulus - 21-01-2023
In German, this is regulated today by grammar.
Two things that belong together, like a pair of shoes, are capitalized pair.
For a smaller amount of anything so one writes paar lower case.
A pair of flies. In the case of the fairy tale "Seven at one stroke", a few flies meant 7.
Es bedeutet eine kleinere Menge von dem was man gewöhnlich gewohnt ist.
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - davidjackson - 22-01-2023
(21-01-2023, 11:40 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You've never been out for a couple of quick drinks after work?(21-01-2023, 11:07 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.a couple in English is understood as two or three or four..In English a couple means two. However it is often used loosely to include three or four. Anything more than four I would have thought stretches the word beyond its limits.
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - Battler - 23-01-2023
Koen G Wrote:Of course these two meanings are interconnected, because for something to be strange it must be relatively uncommon, and something that is uncommon is also more likely to be considered strange. In Dutch, "raar" means weird, while in English "rare" means uncommon.For what it's worth, in Spanish, "raro" means both weird/strange and uncommon, same goes for Catalan "rar". Makes me wonder if the same double meaning existed in older German and Dutch as well.
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - pedestrian - 23-01-2023
(22-01-2023, 07:43 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(21-01-2023, 11:40 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You've never been out for a couple of quick drinks after work?(21-01-2023, 11:07 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.a couple in English is understood as two or three or four..In English a couple means two. However it is often used loosely to include three or four. Anything more than four I would have thought stretches the word beyond its limits.
Also perhaps never been to the South Atlantic islands - St Helena and Tristan da Cunha - where the English in use today sounds curious and at times barely comprehensible to other English speakers but is thought to be similar to 18th century English dialects, presumably those from southwestern England. I believe the theory is that the population - especially for Tristan, <300 people - is too small for linguistic drift to have occurred.
In St Helena 'a couple' means several, while 'a nice couple' means 'quite a lot'.
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - Koen G - 23-01-2023
(23-01-2023, 04:54 AM)Battler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For what it's worth, in Spanish, "raro" means both weird/strange and uncommon, same goes for Catalan "rar". Makes me wonder if the same double meaning existed in older German and Dutch as well.
As far as I understand, the word in question here (seldsam) used to have both meanings "strange" and "uncommon" in medieval German. So the best way to translate it in this case is probably up for debate. But I personally think the right choice was made here. "We purchased various rare books" just sounds more plausible than "We purchased various weird books".
Side note, in modern Dutch and English, the notions of "infrequent" and "weird" are separated. A specific type of collectible card may be rare (uncommon), but that does not imply at all that this card is strange. Rarity is like an objective measure, while "weirdness" is more of a personal judgement. You can call your neighbor weird ("raar" in Dutch) because he always wears a bowler hat, but calling him "rare" (English) or "zeldzaam" (Dutch) doesn't make much sense.
Evolutions like in Spanish, where "raro" means both, and in modern German where "seldsam" came to mean "weird" exclusively, are expected though, since rarity and strangeness so often coincide.
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - Aga Tentakulus - 23-01-2023
The word "rar" also exists in the German application. Other word for "rare / little / not often".
According to the dictionary where Koen has linked.
"strange" Two words put together as one, ca.1400 Jh.
Application c.1500 c. Definitely as a separate word c.18th c.
Since the letter was written around 16.Jh. both are possible. unusual and rare.
Today: An Edelweiss is rare, but not uncommon.
A camel seems unusual with its humps, but is not rare.
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - davidjackson - 23-01-2023
I asked ChatGPL, today's modern Oracle, and it told me:
Quote:Can you give me an English example of how the middle German word seldsam would have been used
Sure, here is an example of how the Middle German word "seldsam" could have been used in a sentence:
"Das ist ein seldsam Gewand, das ich noch nie gesehen habe. Es ist sehr selten und wertvoll."
This translates to: "That is a rare garment, I've never seen before. It's very uncommon and valuable."
In this example, the word "seldsam" is used to describe a garment as being rare and valuable. It is showing that the garment is not frequently encountered and that is of great worth.
It's important to note that this is a hypothetical example, as the word "seldsam" would have been used differently depending on the context and the time period in which it was used.
Quote:What were the meanings of the middle German word seldsam?
The Middle German word "seldsam" has several meanings, including:
Rare or uncommon: This meaning refers to something that is not frequently encountered or seen.
Strange or peculiar: This meaning suggests that something is unusual or out of the ordinary.
Precious or valuable: This meaning implies that something is valuable or of great worth.
Fine or excellent: This meaning refers to something that is of high quality or exceptional.
Distant or remote: This meaning implies that something is far away or located in a remote place.
It's important to note that Middle German is a historical language, and its meanings and usage may have evolved over time and vary based on context.
Either of those actually true?
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - Koen G - 23-01-2023
Yeah it's pretty much spot on, the middle German usage was wider than the modern one. Interesting that it deviates from the modern meaning in its example, opting for the translation of "rare", which is now obsolete but would have been perfectly fine.
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - ReneZ - 23-01-2023
The court registers from Rudolf's time were not written in middle German, but (in this particular case) in 1600.
Also, in my opinion, it makes a lot more sense for a summary note to describe a small group of books as being unusual, rather than describing this group as being rare.
Here are a few more entries using the word "selzam".
September 1588:
Quote:Severino Leorino, so aufm schloß auf ainem roß im rennen selzame khünst gebraucht,
seint 100 taller angeschafft worden.
February 1603:
Quote:Die Doboischen erben werden ersucht, daß sie auf Volckhardten Widtmairß ersuchen, die
bei der verlassenschafft befundene selzame sachen von königlichen antiquitet
herkommendt undter einem inventario alher vertrauen und bei einem eigenen diener zum
ersehen alher überschickhen sollen.
August 1603:
Quote:Hr. bischoff zue Waraßdin solle zue ierer mt. notturfften sex ausserlesener gutschyroß
einer groß und selzamer farben zuwege bringen und den negsten alher überschickhen.
In the third case, which seems to concern a horse, the double meaning of unusual and rare
is evident, as a horse with an unusual colour would necessarily be rare. In the other
cases, the primary meaning appears to me to be "unusual".
RE: Should the "600 ducats" part of the Rudolf story be dismissed for good? - Koen G - 24-01-2023
I agree that "unusual" is probably the best translation for 16th century German. Not quite "rare", but still without the negative or amusing connotations of "weird".
Would we agree on the best translation as "various unusual books" then?