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+--- Thread: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r (/thread-1121.html)
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - ThomasCoon - 29-11-2016
(29-11-2016, 01:04 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The word, "turn", makes sense to me as it implies turning her obedience from God. To answer your question straight out Mr. Coon I believe this is how it was encoded for I know the message that I have relayed from the Voyinch or the (Diablo's Logos) is not perfect English, it’s very close. Also you can encode more information with Gematria, therefore making the entropy look unusually low for a natural language so this would satisfy why the phrases like this, "Now I", are used. It's really not that tough to rap your head around, why the cipher was made this way! The words and phrases represent numbers from adding up the letter in either Hebrew, English or Simple Pythagorean Gematria. When you decode with my cipher I recommend just imputing the letters so that all Gematria engines are used.
I see what you mean about the "turn" phrase. Okay, I understand what you're going for there. But then the question pops up: if you are using all three Gematria calculations (Hebrew, English, and Simple), that means each individual Voynich-word has about 200 possibilities: roughly 100 for Hebrew and 100 for English/Simple.
Take the word oocy (#1 in your last image, the spiral). Its gematria values are 503 (Jewish) and 348 (English). Here are the number of words/phrases with those same gematria values:
Words/phrases with Jewish gematria value 503: 101
Words/phrases with English gematria value 348: 99
Total possible ways to translate oocy: at least 200
Does it strike you as odd that in this system, you'd have to consider at least 200 possibilities for every single word? I can imagine the writer sitting and trying to decode what he wrote, and thinking "Which of the 200 possibilities did I mean for this vord here? And then this one. And now this one." 600 possibilities for just 3 words...
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - Koen G - 29-11-2016
Actually this means that for a short sentence of five words, you can choose from 2430000000000 different translations. Indeed, the number of possible translations for a sentence of about ten words is much greater than the amount of stars in the universe, or grains of sand on earth.
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - stellar - 29-11-2016
(29-11-2016, 03:59 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually this means that for a short sentence of five words, you can choose from 2430000000000 different translations. Indeed, the number of possible translations for a sentence of about ten words is much greater than the amount of stars in the universe, or grains of sand on earth.
Hi Koen,
Can you please show your calculation. I don't understand when 1 word out 200 in a search, seems to me only 200 possibilities. Where do you get 2430000000000?
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - Koen G - 29-11-2016
Sorry, I used 300 instead of 200, but that makes little difference. Say you have a Voynich sentence of two words, with an average of 200 translations each. This means that for each translation of the first word, you have 200 ways to complete the sentence. 200^2 = 40000. With 10 words, you get 200^10. Which is a number greater than the amount of stars in the universe.
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - -JKP- - 29-11-2016
(29-11-2016, 05:05 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-11-2016, 03:59 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually this means that for a short sentence of five words, you can choose from 2430000000000 different translations. Indeed, the number of possible translations for a sentence of about ten words is much greater than the amount of stars in the universe, or grains of sand on earth.
Hi Koen,
Can you please show your calculation. I don't understand when 1 word out 200 in a search, seems to me only 200 possibilities. Where do you get 2430000000000?
Stellar, it's a factorial.
For the first word, there are 200 possibilities. But then you add the second word and there are another 200 possibilities that can be added to EACH of the first 200 possibilities. See how that becomes a huge number very quickly, even when there are only three words?
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - stellar - 29-11-2016
(29-11-2016, 05:21 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-11-2016, 05:05 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-11-2016, 03:59 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually this means that for a short sentence of five words, you can choose from 2430000000000 different translations. Indeed, the number of possible translations for a sentence of about ten words is much greater than the amount of stars in the universe, or grains of sand on earth.
Hi Koen,
Can you please show your calculation. I don't understand when 1 word out 200 in a search, seems to me only 200 possibilities. Where do you get 2430000000000?
Stellar, it's a factorial.
For the first word, there are 200 possibilities. But then you add the second word and there are another 200 possibilities that can be added to EACH of the first 200 possibilities. See how that becomes a huge number very quickly, even when there are only three words?
Well the meaning I'm deriving using association for sentence or phrase structure seems to have some correlation.
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - Koen G - 29-11-2016
Tom, the numbers involved are just too large. A two word sentence will yield 40 000 different translations. If you had to write out all those options at two words per translation, you would have to write 80 000 words. Eighty thousand. That's a large novel.
Typing out all translations for a three word sentence would require 24 000 000 words. Twenty-four milion, for a three word sentence.
The King James Authorized Bible has 783,137 words.
So you would need a box full of bibles just to match the amount of words you would have to type to list all possible translations for a mere three Voynich words.
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - davidjackson - 29-11-2016
More to the point, I am unaware of any attempt to ever use Gematria to translate words.
The whole point of Gematria was to identify the words of God. It worked because Hebrew uses letters as numbers (as a very basic example of how this works, because I can't type Hebrew on this keyboard, imagine a=1,b=2,c=3 etc or read the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.entry). Gematria evolved quite naturally because of the Hebrew habit of creating words out of numbers. So they have a convention for the numbers 15 and 16, for example, because written out in full these two words are alternate Divine Names and should not be used in everyday conversation.
But they never tried to use the words they created to translate words into a different language.
In a way, you're using arithmancy, which was a European Renaissance method of divination by assigning random numbers to letters. Again, this was used to identify divine or mystic properties in words or numbers.
But there isn't a precedent, in my knowledge, for anyone trying to translate between languages - for the very reasons that Koen pointed out above, it's pointless and a waste of time because your words could mean anything.
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - stellar - 29-11-2016
(29-11-2016, 06:27 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tom, the numbers involved are just too large. A two word sentence will yield 40 000 different translations. If you had to write out all those options at two words per translation, you would have to write 80 000 words. Eighty thousand. That's a large novel.Koen Thanks for your thoughts,
Typing out all translations for a three word sentence would require 24 000 000 words. Twenty-four milion, for a three word sentence.
The King James Authorized Bible has 783,137 words.
So you would need a box full of bibles just to match the amount of words you would have to type to list all possible translations for a mere three Voynich words.
But I don't see it from your perspective. When I use a Gematria engine it finds a word or phrase number associated with a ciphered word number that I have built, thus eliminating hundreds of thousands of words. So I look backwards and forwards from 200-500 words that equal the same word number from a ciphered word I put in the Gematria Engine. Then I repeat for the 2nd word which can bring up about the same amount of words from the lists (i.e. 200-500). Then I go about a process of elimination looking for sentence structure with words that fit the model of the sentence or phrase of the whole paragraph. Sometimes I start in the middle of a sentence of the VMS text with ciphered words I have pulled to look for key meanings, then go backwards or forwards through out the Gematria lists. I'm finding most of the words in English Gematria.
When you find interrelationships with words from the Gematria lists which build a VMS sentence its not that complicated. Like when you find the word, "The", that begins at the start of a sentence in most cases or its like a conjunction for emphasis on a noun in a sentence.
For instance the Ros 2 folio I had 19 words to put together and form some coherent logic and it was not that difficult.
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r - -JKP- - 29-11-2016
(29-11-2016, 08:51 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-11-2016, 06:27 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tom, the numbers involved are just too large. A two word sentence will yield 40 000 different translations. If you had to write out all those options at two words per translation, you would have to write 80 000 words. Eighty thousand. That's a large novel.Koen Thanks for your thoughts,
Typing out all translations for a three word sentence would require 24 000 000 words. Twenty-four milion, for a three word sentence.
The King James Authorized Bible has 783,137 words.
So you would need a box full of bibles just to match the amount of words you would have to type to list all possible translations for a mere three Voynich words.
But I don't see it from your perspective. When I use a Gematria engine it finds a word or phrase number associated with a ciphered word number that I have built, thus eliminating hundreds of thousands of words. So I look backwards and forwards from 200-500 words that equal the same word number from a ciphered word I put in the Gematria Engine. Then I repeat for the 2nd word which can bring up about the same amount of words from the lists (i.e. 200-500). Then I go about a process of elimination looking for sentence structure with words that fit the model of the sentence or phrase of the whole paragraph. Sometimes I start in the middle of a sentence of the VMS text with ciphered words I have pulled to look for key meanings, then go backwards or forwards through out the Gematria lists. I'm finding most of the words in English Gematria.
When you find interrelationships with words from the Gematria lists which build a VMS sentence its not that complicated. Like when you find the word, "The", that begins at the start of a sentence in most cases or its like a conjunction for emphasis on a noun in a sentence.
For instance the Ros 2 folio I had 19 words to put together and form some coherent logic and it was not that difficult.
Stellar, you have to take ALL possible words in the second position and match them to all possible words in the first position, and so on.
Let's say you find 50 out of 200 words that might make sense in the first position (words like "he", "they", "the", "why", "it", etc.).
Now you go to the second word and you start with "he" for the first word and find 50 words that logically follow "he". But you're not done yet. You have to go back to word number 1 and then take the second possibility, which is "they" and you might find 50 words that can logically follow that one. Now back to the first word, and find all the words that can logically follow "the", and so on for all 50 of the first words.
Even if you eliminate 75% of the 200 because they don't make grammatical sense, you are still looking at 50 x 50 = 2,500 possibilities for the first two words, and 50 x 50 x 50 = 125,000 possible interpretations for the first three words.