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+--- Thread: f79r - something written under water ??? (/thread-6019.html)
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - Rafal - 16-08-2026
Quote:Contrast-enhanced saturation channel from the old Beinecke scans.
I don't know what to make out of this: the circle at the top appears to be totally obscured by the blue paint, so it doesn't seem that ink below the paint can show up?
Beinecke scan is worse, Jason Davies is better to see these details.
I would say there is no circle at all.
Just a half circle about the water. It doesn't have its part covered by water.
But I agree with Koen, a multispectral scan could shed more light to it.
By the way, that's how I got the "letters" more visible:
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - nablator - 16-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 05:17 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Miultispectral imaging of q13 could still teach us a few things.
Or simply a backlit image, to see through the paint.
Rafal Wrote:Beinecke scan is worse, Jason Davies is better to see these details.
I suppose you used the original files, not the JPEGs? Even these are compressed: the "MrSID" compression removed some details. Extreme colorspace stretching (DStretch or similar) fails to show anything but compression artifacts.
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - Rafal - 16-08-2026
Quote:I suppose you used the original files, not the JPEGs?
I guess so. I just made print screen at the website.
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - Jorge_Stolfi - 16-08-2026
(15-08-2026, 11:49 AM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think there could be some writing or something like that under blue paint in one part of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. folio. Do you see something too or is it just some random noise for you?
I can't decide. There may or may not be.
The VMS ink is not waterproof. One can see that clearly in the stains of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. an f103r. It would resist a quick and thin brush stroke, like those along the water flow. But if liquid paint is allowed to rest on it for a sufficiently long time, the ink will dissolve and disperse.
Moreover, the blue paint is a suspension of an opaque pigment in water plus binder. If it is thick enough -- meaning that the pigment particles completely cover the surface -- it will completely hide anything that is under it. There are two blue paint spots where this is the case: one in the top left corner of the page, above the nymph's left shoulder, and one at the tip of the "scalloped cone" below her, next to the word qokal.
So, I suspect that both things happened on that "tub". The original ink design probably had a round opening (J) on the inside wall, which would be the lower end of the vertical pipe ©, and a flow of water coming out from that opening and running across the "tub" towards the "tub"'s drain (H,I).
The liquid blue paint apparently dissolved any ink that it covered, including the lower half of the (J) opening and the water flow across the tub, except for two small bits at (K,L).
In the darkest part of the painted area, the pigment seems to have 100% coverage. Therefore, if there is anything written there that was not washed away it is probably 100% hidden now. But the color of the paint there seems to be too dark, which may be due to ink that was dissolved by the paint and mixed into it.
[Stop reading now if you are allergic to retracing] The analysis of the Bio images is complicated by the distinct possibility tat that the drawings were "improved" during the global restoration pass. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for more details.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - nablator - 16-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 08:13 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:I suppose you used the original files, not the JPEGs?
I guess so. I just made print screen at the website.
The website displays JPEGs (lossy, quality ~95%). The original MrSID files (also lossy) are: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You need XnView or the old MRSID software to view/convert them.
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - oshfdk - 16-08-2026
I don't think I see any clear letters there. Some lines completing the semicircle design above the paint, some plausible strokes (a sideways ^ that looks a bit similar to an r) and the rest looks more like the normal variation of paint density magnified by the contrast boosters.
I think taking either a UV image or a good close up with a modern phone may provide more information.
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - oshfdk - 16-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 11:52 PM)PIOCTOEMW Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You have to remember that these are hard marks under paint or paint that would leave a mark that used paint for intention there is word there and that word is Konr.
I think it's more likely there is some drawing there and not a word. However, could be a painting instruction too, but I don't think it's possible to read any shapes there except the sideways ^ (which is the r in your interpretation)
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - Jorge_Stolfi - 17-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 11:45 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think taking either a UV image or a good close up with a modern phone may provide more information.I doubt it. It looks like the paint in that area has 100% coverage. To see whether there are ink strokes under the paint we would need some wavelength that can get through the blue pigment, which is probably azurite (copper carbonate). But I checked the images of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in ultraviolet (365 UV), blue (450 RB), and infrared (940 IR), and in all of them the blue paint seems to be opaque and "black".
All the best, --stolfi
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - nablator - 17-08-2026
(16-08-2026, 10:44 PM)PIOCTOEMW Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Konr is there.
I suppose it's a case of "once you see it you can't unsee it".
In your pic I could maybe make out "Kebur", the "K" mostly made of a "V" shape and a short leg, and the "b" missing its top making two spikes.
For me it's "Waſſer" in the "new" (2014) scan and "Kebur" in the "old" (2004) scan. Too different to conclude anything without a better (backlit) picture.
Jorge_Stolfi Wrote:It looks like the paint in that area has 100% coverage.
The paint is not too thick to be transparent, especially on the right side (that's why it's lighter) but the hidden writing is on the left side.
Starting from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
DStretch attempts:
RE: f79r - something written under water ??? - oshfdk - 17-08-2026
(17-08-2026, 03:00 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I doubt it. It looks like the paint in that area has 100% coverage. To see whether there are ink strokes under the paint we would need some wavelength that can get through the blue pigment, which is probably azurite (copper carbonate). But I checked the images of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in ultraviolet (365 UV), blue (450 RB), and infrared (940 IR), and in all of them the blue paint seems to be opaque and "black".
It's not guaranteed, but UV probably still has the highest chance of giving more information. As you can see in the image below, the paint from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. remains dark in all images from UV to IR, but it is a bit less dark in UV, while the ink remains visible in UV and gradually disappears in IR. And while for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it's still impossible to discern the ink under the paint in UV, the paint there is obviously much denser if compared with f79r, as seen on the visible light scans.