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[Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - Printable Version

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RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - Koen G - 07-07-2026

My thoughts on what she's holding:
  • I would not include left or right hand as a parameter, since mirroring might change handedness. The relevant factor may be far hand vs close hand, but again that's hard to know. The Virgo mentioned You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. illustrates the point: technically left hand, but it's obviously the far hand that's preferred by the artist.
  • What she is holding is either a star on a stalk or a flower. Therefore, I would award points to Virgos holding flowers specifically. 
  • In my opinion, the Spica type should be considered as different. This is when they are holding some cereal crop that looks like large feather or a palm fond. See R. Sale's examples above.
  • The types holding scales or a rod are even more different.

How to best translate this into a rating system?

0 pts: holding nothing, spica or man-made object 
1 pt: holding flower
2 pt: holding star

OR

0 pts: holding nothing or man-made object 
1 pt: holding non-flower vegetation
2 pt: holding flower or star

Or something else?

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - eggyk - 07-07-2026

(Yesterday, 01:58 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Neither one will rate that well.

Both manuscripts have been added to both the months+zodiac spreadsheets. And don't worry if they do not score highly! Higher scoring entries actually become more noteworthy when you have a baseline to compare to. 

(Yesterday, 10:52 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.0 pts: holding nothing, spica or man-made object 
1 pt: holding flower
2 pt: holding star

I would prefer this one, perhaps as 

0 pts: holding nothing
0.5 pts: holding spica, feather, or man-made object (holding anything other than flower/star?)
1 pt: holding flower
2 pt: holding star

That would be very clear and easy to score, and I think whether the woman is holding something may be relevant. I agree with generally ignoring left and right hands and generally everything else.

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - DG97EEB - 07-07-2026

Another German one

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Normally I wouldn't trust Gemini to tell me my name, but this is quite a nice synthesis 

This 15th-century illumination blends practical fashion with layered religious and seasonal symbolism. The deliberate choices of color, attire, and objects carry specific artistic meanings: 

## The Color Blue: Purity and Devotion
In the late medieval period, blue was heavily intertwined with the [Virgin Mary]

* The Marian Connection: Because Virgo represents the "Maiden" or "Virgin," medieval artists frequently applied Christian iconographic themes to astrology. Dressing Virgo in blue directly mirrored depictions of [Mary](emphasizing traits of purity, modesty, and divine grace. 

* Status of Pigment: Lapis lazuli, used to make high-quality ultramarine blue, was exceptionally expensive. Using blue in illuminated manuscripts signaled that the subject matter was highly valued and sacred.

## The Kirtle: Youth and Unmarried Status
The figure wears a kirtle (or gonella), which was a close-fitting gown popular throughout the 14th and 15th centuries. [4] 

* Symbol of Youth: In high-status medieval society, wealthy married women typically layered heavy, voluminous outer gowns (like the houppelande or Burgundian gown) over their supportive kirtles when appearing in public.

* The Maiden's Uniform: Showing Virgo in just her kirtle—unburdened by a heavy matronly overgown—emphasized her youth, agility, and status as an unmarried maiden or virgin. The simple white trim at her collar further underscores this clean, unblemished aesthetic.

## The Flower Bouquet: Earth and Harvest
While antiquity traditionally depicted Virgo holding a sheaf of wheat to represent the late summer harvest, medieval artists frequently substituted or supplemented this with botanical fronds, branches, or flowers.

* The Metaphor for Fertility: According to medieval encyclopedists like Saint Isidore of Seville, the sun enters Virgo when the late summer heat parches the land, leaving the earth temporarily barren. To counterbalance this seasonal dryness visually, artists depicted the maiden holding lush green branches or colorful flowers to symbolize the enduring fertility and life of the earth.

* The Wreath and Bouquet: The flowers in her hand match the floral crown woven into her hair. In courtly love and medieval lore, gathering flowers was a symbolic activity reserved for young, pure maidens in springtime gardens, serving as a visual reinforcement of her untouched nature.

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - Koen G - 07-07-2026

Eggy: that works for the attribute, let's lock that in for now.

Now for the other things. Let's have a look at this Virgo, which I believe to be a closely related type: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
   

I personally do not buy the "she's standing on the moon" angle. See how the garment trails and even curves up a bit. Add to that a bit of weird Voynich body proportions and you have all you need to recreate the VM Virgo's flaring dress. 

Also notice how the wreath of blue flowers is not so different from the round hat. We'll have to think about how to score this.

Here are some categories I'd certainly include as binary 0-1, because they are standalone variables
  • wingless (this word is more intuitive to categorize as "yes/no" than "no wings)
  • blue dress
  • dress trails behind figure
  • short hair
  • (meadowy) terrain
  • both hands point forward
  • facing left

Now here is the same Virgo in the same MS, only now with a red dress and facing the other direction. So one could wonder how important the facing direction is. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The sleeves of the overgarment are very flexible depending on place and especially time, and thus can be a very strong indicator. I would use a gradient here:

0: outer garment has tight sleeves
0.5: wide opening at shoulder/upper arm level
1: very wide sleeves at wrist/forearm level
2: ...with dagged edges

I don't know yet what the best way would be to score the headgear, nor the relation upper garment/ lower garment/ neck line....

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - DG97EEB - 07-07-2026

(Yesterday, 01:18 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Eggy: that works for the attribute, let's lock that in for now.

Now for the other things. Let's have a look at this Virgo, which I believe to be a closely related type: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I personally do not buy the "she's standing on the moon" angle. See how the garment trails and even curves up a bit. Add to that a bit of weird Voynich body proportions and you have all you need to recreate the VM Virgo's flaring dress. 

Where did someone say she was standing on a moon? That's not in the Gemini synthesis

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - eggyk - 07-07-2026

I like the sleeves one, and I agree with 'wingless' and 'arms pointing forward' as being binary.

Meadowy terrain is harder to judge as binary (is a green floor a meadow?) so I think an effective: 
not on meadow / maybe on meadow / on meadow / on meadow with flower(s)

For short hair, I assume the example in your post counts as short, even though it's in a bun of sorts? 
long hair / medium/unclear hair / short hair

For a blue dress, I also think a gradient could be worthwhile. Green, or a sort of blueish green is far more blue than red is. 
not coloured in / red/no clothing / green/blueish green clothing / blue clothing

For the headgear, I would personally count your example as either a 1 or 1.5. We don't have enough blue on heads to be discounting them on technicalities  Tongue
My personal opinion would be: 
not wearing headwear / wearing headwear 100% unrelated to VMS  (crown etc) / wearing headwear / wearing blue headwear

"100% Unrelated headwear"             "Headwear"                            "blue headwear"
           

We also don't 100% know how the colouring affected the detailing. Note that the shape of the hair in the second and third images are reminiscent of the VMS "hat" shape. Could that have been the hair, and the blue a badly painted hairband/wreath? 

And I think for the dress trailing the figure may also have a middle case. For example, does this one count? I would say "kinda", but we can also say "no" if people prefer. 
   

Edit: And I don't know whether facing left is worth tracking, as it does indeed seem to depend on the placement on the page and varies a lot within works, so isn't really a core attribute of the depiction.

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - Grove - 07-07-2026

Not sure how to post with an image here. I searched medieval female headwear and found an image with the description: escoffion-stuffed roll of silk over gauze wimple. English late 14th century - that seems close to me.

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - Koen G - 07-07-2026

(Yesterday, 02:00 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Where did someone say she was standing on a moon? That's not in the Gemini synthesis

It was in VViews' old blog, and someone referred to it earlier in this thread, which is why I referenced it again. Here, second post: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I didn't always agree with VViews' views, but the blog is worth including if you haven't already.

Eggy:

Hair: maybe hair done up vs down? "Short" was a bad description since hair done up may still be very long. But a maiden with her long hair flowing vs one with her hair done up is different. So if our category is "hair done up", we all know what we're after, which is the typical "buns" (your partner drew the back bun quite well :D). In the examples in your previous post, 2 and 3 have buns (and a headband), 1 and 4 have not.

(I apologize to all hair stylists out there).

We have to be careful with the color, not to rate it twice. A blue dress may be more likely with a blue headband or blue flowers. So I would just award a point for the clothing being (mainly) blue. About other colors, I don't think we should differentiate between them, since each color has its own connotations. A red, green or yellow dress are all not blue. For the headgear, the fact that it is this type of hat that kind of looks like a roll of fabric seems to be the important factor, even though flowers give a similar vibe. See R.Sale's earlier link for examples that show what we're probably looking for. These hats exist and are compatible with the high forehead You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

New proposal (I prefer binary or one in-between category, just for clarity).
Three options (0/0.5/1):
  • no terrain / on terrain / meadow with flower(s)
  • hair down / hair up / two buns (or how to call this? Lobes? Hairlobes)
  • no headgear or vastly different style / band-style headgear / "roll of fabric" type (better term may be needed).
Binary:
  • blue(ish) clothing
  • dress trails behind
  • both hands forward (this will basically guarantee that she's facing to one side, which should be enough to capture the pose)
  • wingless
Categories of four that can go up to two points:
  • holding nothing / holding anything that's not a flower or a star / holding flower, one hand / holding star 
  • only tight-fitting sleeves / wide opening at shoulder level / wide open sleeves near wrist level / ...that are dagged.

What we're still missing is anything that addresses the extra lines at neck and wrist. At the wrist line we're obviously looking at a separate piece of clothing, but the neck line could be trim on the same garment.

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - eggyk - 07-07-2026

(Yesterday, 04:00 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hair: maybe hair done up vs down? "Short" was a bad description since hair done up may still be very long. But a maiden with her long hair flowing vs one with her hair done up is different. So if our category is "hair done up", we all know what we're after, which is the typical "buns" (your partner drew the back bun quite well Big Grin). In the examples in your previous post, 2 and 3 have buns (and a headband), 1 and 4 have not.

I was happy with "short hair" just meaning "not flowing, not loose, done up". If it's kinda unclear for an example, we can go in the middle or discuss here? Unless we are thinking the VMS virgo definitely has side buns -princess leia style- i'm not sure we should start comparing done-up hairstyles. As you say, I think we know roughly what we're looking for. So:
hair down (flowing) / Unsure or in the middle / hair up (or short)

The hat is fine like that too. I think we'll know when we see a hat that is a good score. 
no headgear or vastly different style / band-style headgear / "hat that looks like VMS hat that probably has a name"

I would say that the meadow/terrain in that setup is fine. However, if flowered meadows (or a single flower) appear to be quite rare, I think we can change it later to seperate out the better examples. So:
no terrain / on terrain / meadow with flower(s)

And for the clothing, shouldn't there be a "no clothing" option? That way we can test for blue and also test for the clothes in the first place. I know that it sounds weird that other colours of clothing might be given a 0.5 score, but I really think it will sort the entries better than a binary. 

For example, in a situation with 3 entries, entry 1 with a red flowing dress, and entry 2 with a blue shirt, entry 3 with no clothes:
1 binary (blueish clothing yes/no)
Entry 1 =  0
Entry 2 =  1
Entry 3 =  0

2 binaries (clothing yes/no, blueish clothing yes/no)
Entry 1 - 1 + 0 = 1
Entry 2 - 1 + 1 = 2
Entry 3 - 0 + 0 = 0

And the mixed question (no clothing, clothing, blue clothing)
Entry 1 = 0.5
Entry 2 = 1
Entry 3 = 0

The 2nd and 3rd option both seperate out the less desireable unclothed entries, but the 3rd allows us to take otherwise good entries and place them neatly below the blue-clothed entries. The 1st option does not discriminate between no clothes and clothes, and the 2nd option will lead to messier data that's harder to track.

So, imo:
no clothing / clothing / blue clothing

For clarity, with the "both hands pointing forward", what counts as "pointing"? For example, do these count?:

       

(Yesterday, 04:00 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What we're still missing is anything that addresses the extra lines at neck and wrist. At the wrist line we're obviously looking at a separate piece of clothing, but the neck line could be trim on the same garment.

Oh. I've been interpreting it as this.. now I don't know  Smile

       

RE: [Zodiac Rating] VIRGO - Koen G - 07-07-2026

My previous post was posted at the same time as yours, let me look at what you wrote first.

Agreed on hair, hat and meadow. Clothing is okay too.

In the example I discussed in the post that crossed yours, the hand thing was also unclear. This needs rephrasing.

In the strictest sense, we could say "both hands in front of body". But then none of our examples would pass. 

Maybe "one hand on either side" 0, "something in between" 0.5 and "two hands in front of body" 1?

So for this example:
[Image: virgo.jpg?w=593&ssl=1]

meadow with flowers (1)
hair done up (1)
band-style headgear (0.5)
clothed but not blue (0.5)
dress trails behind (1)
hand position something in between (0.5)
wingless (1)
holding something (0.5)
only tight fitting sleeves (0)

edit: for the dress trail, we could shift the trail to half a point and give it a whole point when it also "curls up" somehow?