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+--- Thread: f80r top nymphs (/thread-576.html)
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 01-05-2016
JKP, if you decide to look into this matter and perhaps write a post about it, that would be very interesting indeed.
Personally I'd include early versions, specifically those into Greek. But that's probably just me, and unfortunately I hardly read any Greek. Anyone here does?
Also we have to keep Voynich peculiarities in mind. Was this color the only thing the painter had available for purple? In that case, we don't know which color they meant.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Voynich nymphs are naked by default and only bear those attributes that are absolutely required to identify them. So many descriptions about dress in the story are just ignored.
As to the symbolic layer, all main players are women - the man in the right is not on the stage. This must be relevant. Probably this myth is drawn to help the reader memorize a number of things he perceives as female. For example, Dianes idea that these nymphs refer to stars, constellations, cities or a combination of those.
If, for example, a sequencr of cities had to be memorized and could somehow be tied to these scenes of the story, that would be a great mnemonic. Such memory tricks were used in Antiquity and medieval times alike.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Sam G - 01-05-2016
Well, I don't know, this looks like a classic case of finding a few details that match by pure coincidence, and ignoring the many points that don't match.
To start with, while it does look like the pair at the far right could be interpreted as depicting the male figure holding the female hostage, it isn't really clear that her hands are tied, much less that her hair is being used to tie them. It's not clear if she's holding some sort of ring with her hands, or if that's part of her clothing, or part of her hair, or what. I have trouble seeing a clear spindle there, though, and if it's really her attribute I would think the illustrator would want to make that obvious.
The nymphs all have different hairstyles, as they do throughout the VMS, which I've always interpreted as a way to convey that the nymphs are different from one another, but here you have nymphs with several different hairstyles all representing Philomena. That seems like a hard claim to justify.
You've interpreted the nymph with the "arms bent backward" posture as "rushing off", but we see the same posture in the nymph that you interpret as having just had her tongue cut out, and we can see it as well in a nymph in the left margin of 77v, who doesn't look like she's rushing off to anywhere since she's standing in a small tub. Maybe the same posture has a different meaning in different circumstances, but the postures of the nymphs in general seem to be precise and to serve some sort of purpose.
The "one arm behind back" posture does seem relatively rare, but I was able to find at least one other instance of it - the second nymph from the top in the left margin of 79r. It doesn't seem likely that it represents "hiding one's attribute" in that case, which I think reduces the chances that it represents it here.
The headgear on the nymph you identify as the queen receiving the messenger isn't obviously a crown. There are more distinctive and obvious crowns on nymphs elsewhere, including on what you refer to as the queen in disguise, which seems backwards from what you'd expect.
Similar concerns as those raised above apply to the green hair and the "signs with her hands" nymphs - we see these things elsewhere.
I wasn't familiar with this story before, but after reading some summaries of it obviously some important parts are left out in your interpretation, and some relatively minor aspects are included, which increases the likelihood that this is just a coincidence. I suppose you could argue that some of these portions were left out because they are violent, and we never see violence in the VMS, so maybe the illustrator didn't like showing it. Then again, maybe we never see it because it's never relevant to the subject matter.
The line at the bottom of this illustration is strange, and I have thought about it before. You interpret it as a piece of thread, but if it's thread, then why are the nymph's feet and everything else below it cut off? That doesn't really make sense. (Actually, I suspect cutting off the nymphs' feet from view is precisely the purpose of this line, since it seems that everywhere in the VMS the illustrator wants the nymphs' feet to be hidden by default and only visible in certain circumstances, but this topic will probably need a separate post of its own.)
Anyway, as you acknowledge, the VMS doesn't seem to be a story book generally, so it's not clear what a snippet from Ovid's Metamorphoses would be doing here. Arguably this concern is irrelevant if the evidence that it is indeed a depiction of something from Ovid is strong enough, but I don't think it's that strong. Although this scene is perhaps somewhat atypical of the Bio section, it still looks like it belongs there and forms part of a coherent whole. So if the rest of it isn't about Ovid, then it's unlikely that this bit is either. You've argued that it might be a mnemonic of some kind, which might adequately address this concern about it being out of place, but it's hard to see what it would be a mnemonic for, and it would seem that someone would have to know this particular story quite well in order to recognize it in this imagery and make use of such a mnemonic. Taken all together, your interpretation of this scene doesn't seem very likely to be correct to me.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 01-05-2016
Sam - this mostly comes down to how one is willing to interpret things, and to what extent one wants everything to match perfectly. To go over your points:
"it isn't really clear that her hands are tied, much less that her hair is being used to tie them"
Marco pointed out to me that the tying hands with hair thing is a translation error in the edition I used. In other translations, there is a moment where the king pulls the girl's hair and brings her hands behind her back, before tying her up.
"The nymphs all have different hairstyles"
In the first picture, Philomela has her hair loose because she has just been raped - it's a sign. After that, her hair is tied up again. What I conclude from this is that hairstyle is not used as a means to identify an individual, but rather a means to say something about the state of this individual.
"Same posture, different thing"
Voynich postures are limited, all in all. The "rushing" could signify a general state of excitement, be it positive or negative.
"The headgear on the nymph you identify as the queen receiving the messenger isn't obviously a crown. There are more distinctive and obvious crowns on nymphs elsewhere, including on what you refer to as the queen in disguise, which seems backwards from what you'd expect."
We don't know what looked like a crown to the Voynich author - maybe his set of "crowns" is different than ours. Also, I'm not claiming that this is an absolutely perfect depiction of the myth...
"Some parts are left out"
Yes, I noticed as well. This probably ties into the needs of the mnemonic though. Only the useful scenes were selected, enough to still make the structure of the story clear. This actually supports my interpretation as a mnemonic device for something else.
Finally, I have just written a post about how the final part of this story is used as a mnemonic in the "four winds" folio.
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RE: f80r top nymphs - EllieV - 01-05-2016
(01-05-2016, 12:02 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think these nymphs tell the story of Philomela, as told by Ovid.Nice. I like your idea.
RE: f80r top nymphs - R. Sale - 02-05-2016
I have to say that I'm with Sam G on this one. Is this an illustration of a woman being captured? Let's try a VMs thought experiment and imagine the drawing of a captured woman, who has just been set free. How would that be different? Or perhaps her smile isn't quite big enough?
In the myth of Procne and Philomela, Philomela's capture is the prologue to Procne's revenge. If you can't substantiate those events, how is the VMs illustration anything beyond generic - other than a clearly predisposed preference for finding something with classical Greek / Roman connections?
RE: f80r top nymphs - -JKP- - 02-05-2016
(02-05-2016, 01:11 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have to say that I'm with Sam G on this one. Is this an illustration of a woman being captured? Let's try a VMs thought experiment and imagine the drawing of a captured woman, who has just been set free. How would that be different? Or perhaps her smile isn't quite big enough?
In the myth of Procne and Philomela, Philomela's capture is the prologue to Procne's revenge. If you can't substantiate those events, how is the VMs illustration anything beyond generic - other than a clearly predisposed preference for finding something with classical Greek / Roman connections?
If the connection between the imagery and any legends that may have inspired them were meant to be overt, then I doubt if the text would have been written in an unknown script.
If the imagery is meant to be mneumonic, then only enough detail to identify the subject matter is needed.
I don't know if Koen's idea is correct, but it has some good touchpoints and the idea is worth pursuing at least for a while to see if it can explain any of the other inexplicable parts of the manuscript.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 02-05-2016
(02-05-2016, 01:11 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the myth of Procne and Philomela, Philomela's capture is the prologue to Procne's revenge. If you can't substantiate those events, how is the VMs illustration anything beyond generic - other than a clearly predisposed preference for finding something with classical Greek / Roman connections?
I may not have made clear enough which position I'm defending. I don't want to defend that this is a complete and detailed representation of all important parts of the story, because it is not, and it clearly isn't it intention.
Know that I came upon the story of Philomela rather late in my line of investigation. The "spindle-as-attribute" did lead me to believe that this was a mythological reference, but I looked into several, including a possible "Eve as spinner" iconography. I also checked the date range and summaries of other medieval tales, as well as classical myths. None of them seemed like a suitable match for what I hypothesized to be a number of scenes. When I got to know the story of Philomela, it was quite the revelation.
You need to have gone through a number of failed attempts to appreciate how close a match this is.
The position I want to defend concerning this imagery, is that it was likely drawn as a tool to help memorize other information. Linking the unknown information to well-known information is an excellent way to do this. Let me clarify with a modern example.
Say you need to study for a history test about the Cold War. You know nothing about it, and find it hard to remember. You are, however, a huge Lord of the Rings fan. You decide to come up with scenes from LotR that rougly match Cold War episodes - It's not that hard, because in each narrative you have a West vs. East story, a lasting impact on the world after the conflict, government issues... LotR is not about the Cold War since it was written before it, but that doesn't matter one bit - you use and abuse the story for your own needs.
So you assign roles to each character and start doodling. It's not art class, so you represent the characters as stick figures with a clear attribute. For example Frodo gets a ring, even in scenes where he isn't wearing the Ring. Gimli gets an axe, also when he's not in combat. You find a few scenes that will help you memorize the key points of the cold war, and draw them like a comic using LotR characters in an "allegorical" way.
Does it matter if you give Frodo red pants instead of purple ones? No!
Does it matter if a number of key scenes aren't included? No! You are not telling the entire LotR trilogy - that wouldn't help you one bit.
And so on. Only in the VM, this seems to have been done in a much more skilled way than I ever could, and using a story that, as others have pointed out, was still popular in the Middle Ages as well. The author must have had a pretty clear image of his relatively limited audience and their knowledge (perhaps it was just for himself) - so he could select those stories that were known to them, even if those stories weren't popularly known by everyone.
The challenge will now be to uncover the type of information that is linked to these scenes from Ovid. It's almost certainly in the labels, as those don't match the characters - which perfectly fits my views. Let's also not forget that there is an entire page of text accompanying this image, possibly clarifying how it can be used as a mnemonic aid.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Sam G - 02-05-2016
(01-05-2016, 11:08 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sam - this mostly comes down to how one is willing to interpret things, and to what extent one wants everything to match perfectly.
More importantly it has to do with whether or not you think your interpretation of this particular scene should make any sense at all within the wider context in which the scene appears.
Quote:"it isn't really clear that her hands are tied, much less that her hair is being used to tie them"
Marco pointed out to me that the tying hands with hair thing is a translation error in the edition I used. In other translations, there is a moment where the king pulls the girl's hair and brings her hands behind her back, before tying her up.
Okay, so there goes what was by far your strongest piece of evidence, but that's cool. Fortunately it was flexible and ambiguous to begin with, like all the other "points of agreement" here.
Really, all you have here is a sequence of assertions - "this woman just got raped", "this woman is a queen", "this woman just got her tongue cut out", etc. - with absolutely nothing whatsoever in the imagery to support these claims. You could make an equally convincing argument for pretty much any story you want.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 02-05-2016
Sam - the strongest evidence for me was the entire sequence matching to a relatively large extent. The arms forcing image, but also the messenger showing a "red/purple on white" (depends on the translation) piece of fabric to a queen - in combination with all the other elements. It's extremely easy to analyze one image and find a match for it anywhere, but the entire sequence? Give it a go if you like.
![[Image: 3.jpg?w=720]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/3.jpg?w=720)
But well, whatever. This is the kind of stuff that can be discussed forever. I say it's enough to assume a match, you say it isn't. I say it can be a crown, you say it isn't, and so on. If you're not convinced, that's just fine. I'm going to see if there is any more to this; It aint gonna solve itself 
RE: f80r top nymphs - Sam G - 02-05-2016
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