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+--- Thread: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. (/thread-5745.html)
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RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Dunsel - 15-05-2026
(15-05-2026, 11:34 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-05-2026, 07:08 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-05-2026, 07:02 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Something looks off with the placement of EVA i and e in this line.
Also ccth... mor.
Bigrams are not enough, you need trigrams statistics to generate plausible Voynichese.
It would work better, but it becomes a bit of a brute force method.
In both cases (bigrams and trigrams) a separate tweak will be necessary to get realistic word spacing.
And you need separate rules for the various Currier languages and dialects...
What I'm seeing from all of those bigrams and trigram outputs, the zipf curve, the word length distribution... it's all emergent. None of my code forces anything. It is all probabalistic but it didn't need to be. All of those probabilities are to 'simulate' the method the scribe likely had in their head. And, if you remember my work on the bigram ED, this all ties into it. I did say I was working on a method to reconstruct the Voynich. I 'think' I have found it. Scribe 2 used the same system as Scribe 1, but their method was different enough that my modelling just doesn't look realistic. I still have a bit of work to do there. It's the same 'mechanism' just a different way of using it. Scribe one however, was much simpler in the way he worked and I believe even Currier saw that.
RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - JoJo_Jost - 16-05-2026
(15-05-2026, 09:47 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.AND... I may be sticking my neck out on this statement... but, my tests have pretty well convinced me that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was NOT the first page of the book.
I'm glad to hear that—because, in my opinion, that's exactly what it comes down to: it just has to be simple. I find the approach interesting, but also dangerous.
The more basic assumptions you have to change, the more you get caught up in that typical Voynich vortex, which ultimately leads nowhere. But I've subscribed to your thread and am curious to see how it unfolds.
(15-05-2026, 11:34 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.n both cases (bigrams and trigrams) a separate tweak will be necessary to get realistic word spacing.
And then there's still the possibility that it includes single glyphs, as well as bigrams, trigrams, 4-grams, 5-grams... and so on.
RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Mauro - 16-05-2026
(15-05-2026, 11:45 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I'm seeing from all of those bigrams and trigram outputs, the zipf curve, the word length distribution... it's all emergent. None of my code forces anything. It is all probabalistic but it didn't need to be.
Well, it'll be surely interesting to see how your algorithm works. Can you give us details?
RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Dunsel - 16-05-2026
(16-05-2026, 05:09 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-05-2026, 09:47 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.AND... I may be sticking my neck out on this statement... but, my tests have pretty well convinced me that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was NOT the first page of the book.
I'm glad to hear that—because, in my opinion, that's exactly what it comes down to: it just has to be simple. I find the approach interesting, but also dangerous.
The more basic assumptions you have to change, the more you get caught up in that typical Voynich vortex, which ultimately leads nowhere. But I've subscribed to your thread and am curious to see how it unfolds.
(15-05-2026, 11:34 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.n both cases (bigrams and trigrams) a separate tweak will be necessary to get realistic word spacing.
And then there's still the possibility that it includes single glyphs, as well as bigrams, trigrams, 4-grams, 5-grams... and so on.
Thank you. And yes, there are n-grams and they are all emergent. And you are absolutely right. This was created in the 15th century. I never believed it was anything other than a simple process. And, for at least Scribe 1, I'm pretty certain it is.
I'm still working on organizing the repo but once that's done. I'll post a link to the paper and put on my helmet.
RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Dunsel - 16-05-2026
(16-05-2026, 07:37 AM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-05-2026, 11:45 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I'm seeing from all of those bigrams and trigram outputs, the zipf curve, the word length distribution... it's all emergent. None of my code forces anything. It is all probabalistic but it didn't need to be.
Well, it'll be surely interesting to see how your algorithm works. Can you give us details?
As in a previous reply, I have the paper on Zenodo and I'm still working on the repo. Once that's up, you'll have access to python files, which I'm adding GUI's to all of, and all of my data. Basically, Timm and Schinner showed that self copying can reproduce a lot of the statistics of the Voynich. Where I go further is, I believe I can show exactly where words are copied from. And it's not pages, it's sheets.
Almost all of the Herbal Scribe 1, I can point to a page in the Voynich and say, those words came from one SHEET in the Voynich. Sometimes 2, rarely 3. Everyone else has looked at pages sequentially to see where words came from. The Voynich was originally created in sheets, not pages. So, if a scribe were to copy words, he wouldn't keep flipping the current sheet over to see what was on the other side. He's look at another sheet he'd already produced. That's the basic theory. There's a bit more to it than that but... what do you think?
Oh, and gallows? One sec, let me put the helmet on... I think I can explain 97.9% of them.
RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Mauro - 16-05-2026
(16-05-2026, 04:30 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2026, 07:37 AM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-05-2026, 11:45 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I'm seeing from all of those bigrams and trigram outputs, the zipf curve, the word length distribution... it's all emergent. None of my code forces anything. It is all probabalistic but it didn't need to be.
Well, it'll be surely interesting to see how your algorithm works. Can you give us details?
As in a previous reply, I have the paper on Zenodo and I'm still working on the repo.
Can you please post again the link to your paper? I just can't find it, sorry.
RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Dunsel - 16-05-2026
(16-05-2026, 06:58 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2026, 04:30 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2026, 07:37 AM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-05-2026, 11:45 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I'm seeing from all of those bigrams and trigram outputs, the zipf curve, the word length distribution... it's all emergent. None of my code forces anything. It is all probabalistic but it didn't need to be.
Well, it'll be surely interesting to see how your algorithm works. Can you give us details?
As in a previous reply, I have the paper on Zenodo and I'm still working on the repo.
Can you please post again the link to your paper? I just can't find it, sorry.
Haven't posted it yet. Still working on the repo.
RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Dunsel - 16-05-2026
Repo link. Go ahead and tinker with the files. Some minor edits to do to the paper.
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RE: Output from a Voynich generator I'm working on. - Dunsel - 16-05-2026
Started a new post. Paper and repro linked.
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Delete this post if you wish. I'll continue on that one.