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+--- Thread: Creature(?) in Rosettes page (/thread-5517.html)
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RE: Creature(?) in Rosettes page - Linda - 08-04-2026
(07-04-2026, 03:26 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-04-2026, 02:10 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some cloud formation?
Maybe but weird. Personally I interpret the scalloped things and others on the top and right side of the circle as a not-very-successful drawing of big waves crashing on a cliff or a shore (unclear).
Yes, real waves don't look like this, but everyone is not Kanagawa.
I can't believe nobody else saw waves.
RE: Creature(?) in Rosettes page - DG97EEB - 08-04-2026
(08-04-2026, 12:18 AM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-04-2026, 08:11 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(07-04-2026, 04:55 PM)oeesordy Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I believe the artist was trying to convey depth with a path and a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nearby.
That is similar to my interpretation.
That's what I see, too. It's the side of the road or path. Clouds. It's not a creature. The Rosettes Page is not a map of a real place. It's symbolic. It's a diagram that represents different things but those things are connected. I've already said what I think those different things are so I won't repeat myself.
I think this is the challenge of this manuscript in both the words and pictures. It has a strange mirror property where anything anyone wants to apply to it can be true...
For me, it's obvious that the central rosette is a view of San Marco (and I know I'm not the first to say this), the top right is clearly a walled city like Padua or Citadella, or Monselice or Este, and the middle top and bottom looks very much like abstractions from the inside domes of San Marco ..
But that's only because I'm convinced it's a Venetian/Paduan production.. If I were convinced of it being Chinese, I'd pick other things .
RE: Creature(?) in Rosettes page - Linda - 09-04-2026
(08-04-2026, 06:18 AM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think this is the challenge of this manuscript in both the words and pictures. It has a strange mirror property where anything anyone wants to apply to it can be true...
I agree with that assessment. The variety of coexisting possibilities presented is amazing. Many times I can see them too, if I let go of my own view for a while.
Quote:For me, it's obvious that the central rosette is a view of San Marco (and I know I'm not the first to say this), the top right is clearly a walled city like Padua or Citadella, or Monselice or Este, and the middle top and bottom looks very much like abstractions from the inside domes of San Marco ..
But that's only because I'm convinced it's a Venetian/Paduan production.. If I were convinced of it being Chinese, I'd pick other things .
I am curious, what in particular is the bit that is shown to be a creature here, in your Venetian/Paduan view? Are there other parts of the manuscript that convince you of these aspects, or just the Rosettes?
RE: Creature(?) in Rosettes page - DG97EEB - 09-04-2026
(Yesterday, 02:45 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(08-04-2026, 06:18 AM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think this is the challenge of this manuscript in both the words and pictures. It has a strange mirror property where anything anyone wants to apply to it can be true...
I agree with that assessment. The variety of coexisting possibilities presented is amazing. Many times I can see them too, if I let go of my own view for a while.
Quote:For me, it's obvious that the central rosette is a view of San Marco (and I know I'm not the first to say this), the top right is clearly a walled city like Padua or Citadella, or Monselice or Este, and the middle top and bottom looks very much like abstractions from the inside domes of San Marco ..
But that's only because I'm convinced it's a Venetian/Paduan production.. If I were convinced of it being Chinese, I'd pick other things .
I am curious, what in particular is the bit that is shown to be a creature here, in your Venetian/Paduan view? Are there other parts of the manuscript that convince you of these aspects, or just the Rosettes?
I don't think it is shown to be a creature at all. It looks to me like a well spring coming out of a hillside. There are many such in that area.
Btw, there were also established canals between these places, and I think that's what the linkages between the rosettes represent, whether literally or allegorically, I'm not sure. There were certainly not exactly 9 springs unfortunately. It could be a mixture of physical and mnemonic.
I'm researching at the moment (and none of the below is without controversy btw)
1) Look at Torscella, Beasley, Julian, and they all of them say that the "alchemical herbals" are likely Venetian and that whilst Voynich is not per se an Alchemical Herbal, it's within that idiom
2) The hand writing looks Italian humanist rather than gothic, so Germany is likely ruled out
3) The best answer to the Pisces first question that I've seen is that it reflects the More Veneto - Venice new year starting 1st March when the sun would be in Pisces.. The problem with that is I cannot find any other calenders that show pisces first, though there are some that show a March 1st - I don't believe it's actually Zodiacal
4) I think the Germanic features of the Zodiac signs (as identified by Koen and Ponzi) can be explained by a German illustrator, and Padua University had the largest Natio Germanica at the time
5) There is documented evidence of student Gymnasia where manuscripts were copied under supervision of a professor (Barzizza) and if we take Lisa Fagin Davis's 5 hands analysis, this is ready made for it.
6) The curriculum that was first taught under D'Abano seems to fit the materials we observe almost directly. D'Abano himself then wrote a De Balneis about the Euganean Hills
7) If it's a cipher, Milan is more advanced at this time, but Venice had merchant ciphers and the Council of Ten, plus Fontana, etc.. btw, I wrote a whole paper on a cipher theory, but when you strip away the numbers, it doesn't get you much beyond what a copy/mutate would do, so I'm still in two minds about that, but I think a 2 table cipher is at least plausible
8) universities have stocks of vellum, and this is very small, with poor vellum and without gilding so it was designed to be functional.
9) We have some significant libraries in Padua that would have had all the Manuscripts needed for the source materials.
I'm compressing and confusing some timelines above and some of this is somewhat circumstantial , but when you see it all laid out (I can share my draft with you if you like), it seems fairly obvious... Of course I know there are many who disagree, but such is the joy of this research field
So my conclusion is it's likely a Professorial led mixed Italian/German student project at Padua University probably around 1460, and the task was simply to build a Vade Mecum/Hausbuch. Other than a hoax or a much later production, nothing else fits as well, for me at least. There are some who insist that it must be much older or contain Eastern influences. I would say I agree, but that's actually a positive for Padua, because the whole curriculum was based on Arabic and Greek texts, so everything was foreign and older. In my view this is exactly what you'd expect to see in this kind of environment, and we need to distinguish between the content and the production environment.
I'm sure the community will tell me the 25 ways in which I'm wrong, but I'm up to 100 references at the moment, so I've not just pulled this out of my backside (and yes I've read them not just used AI)
Ed
RE: Creature(?) in Rosettes page - Linda - 10-04-2026
(Yesterday, 07:58 AM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think it is shown to be a creature at all. It looks to me like a well spring coming out of a hillside. There are many such in that area.I agree that it is not a creature although I can see the creature when they show it as such. However my own take is that it is a wave, which may be a stand-in for other interpretations.
Quote:Btw, there were also established canals between these places, and I think that's what the linkages between the rosettes represent, whether literally or allegorically, I'm not sure. There were certainly not exactly 9 springs unfortunately. It could be a mixture of physical and mnemonic.When you say 9 springs, you mean the 9 rosettes? I only count 7 waves, I think of them as both the seven seas and the one encircling sea, to span the history of cartography.
Quote:I'm researching at the moment (and none of the below is without controversy btw)1 I defer as I don't have much knowledge of alchemical herbals, Venetian or not.
1) Look at Torscella, Beasley, Julian, and they all of them say that the "alchemical herbals" are likely Venetian and that whilst Voynich is not per se an Alchemical Herbal, it's within that idiom
2) The hand writing looks Italian humanist rather than gothic, so Germany is likely ruled out
3) The best answer to the Pisces first question that I've seen is that it reflects the More Veneto - Venice new year starting 1st March when the sun would be in Pisces.. The problem with that is I cannot find any other calenders that show pisces first, though there are some that show a March 1st - I don't believe it's actually Zodiacal
4) I think the Germanic features of the Zodiac signs (as identified by Koen and Ponzi) can be explained by a German illustrator, and Padua University had the largest Natio Germanica at the time
5) There is documented evidence of student Gymnasia where manuscripts were copied under supervision of a professor (Barzizza) and if we take Lisa Fagin Davis's 5 hands analysis, this is ready made for it.
6) The curriculum that was first taught under D'Abano seems to fit the materials we observe almost directly. D'Abano himself then wrote a De Balneis about the Euganean Hills
7) If it's a cipher, Milan is more advanced at this time, but Venice had merchant ciphers and the Council of Ten, plus Fontana, etc.. btw, I wrote a whole paper on a cipher theory, but when you strip away the numbers, it doesn't get you much beyond what a copy/mutate would do, so I'm still in two minds about that, but I think a 2 table cipher is at least plausible
8) universities have stocks of vellum, and this is very small, with poor vellum and without gilding so it was designed to be functional.
9) We have some significant libraries in Padua that would have had all the Manuscripts needed for the source materials.
2 I agree re humanist but I don't think it necessarily rules out German, I get the idea that a large number of German speakers inhabited the northern regions of what is now Italy.
3 I have heard this before, but I see the zodiac as more of a Platonic year, which would also put Pisces first as it was then and is now the age we are in, and evidently the dawning of the Age of Aquarius has not yet occurred but may be imminent. It would explain why the more recent ages have clothing and architectural mnemonics, whereas the older ones are all nudes and appear nomadic. But then it was proposed that someone else drew the clothing and tubs later, but regardless it still seems possible to me for someone to have taken such a stance.
4. I could see that being the case.
5. I could accept that too, although I get more of a sense of family or close-knit group with common interests, although only after it was identified that there were multiple scribes.
6. I don't think there is any bathing going on.
7. I wish I had more insight into the text but I don't, really.
8. Again no knowledge here from me, although the fact that it is vellum makes me think it was something important that was meant to be preserved.
9. I imagine this was the case in a lot of places, but I could accept your choice.
Quote:I'm compressing and confusing some timelines above and some of this is somewhat circumstantial , but when you see it all laid out (I can share my draft with you if you like), it seems fairly obvious... Of course I know there are many who disagree, but such is the joy of this research fieldMy own takes are more fringe, yours are acceptable to me but I am not knowledgeable enough in these places and histories thereof to have an opinion of my own on its veracity. I only know I can memorize contiguous geographical points of interest with the help of the quire 13 imagery.
Quote:I like the time period, more things happen around or before this time that could result in someone or some many, so to speak, to work on a project like this. I feel like Byzantine influences might also be at play, or older texts that were brought from these areas to the more western locations through the universities or councils etc. So I agree with you there also.
So my conclusion is it's likely a Professorial led mixed Italian/German student project at Padua University probably around 1460, and the task was simply to build a Vade Mecum/Hausbuch. Other than a hoax or a much later production, nothing else fits as well, for me at least. There are some who insist that it must be much older or contain Eastern influences. I would say I agree, but that's actually a positive for Padua, because the whole curriculum was based on Arabic and Greek texts, so everything was foreign and older. In my view this is exactly what you'd expect to see in this kind of environment, and we need to distinguish between the content and the production environment.
Quote:I'm sure the community will tell me the 25 ways in which I'm wrong, but I'm up to 100 references at the moment, so I've not just pulled this out of my backside (and yes I've read them not just used AI)Thank you for your comprehensive answer!
Ed