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+--- Thread: 'P' is the key (/thread-5418.html)
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 06-03-2026
(06-03-2026, 01:36 AM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(06-03-2026, 12:41 AM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
there's only one region where you'll ever see a day/night cycle so short.
How do you explain all the unclothed nymphs in the arctic circle?
I fail to see the relevance here, and it really just feels like you're asking so you can have a big "gotcha" moment... I also don't think calling them nymphs does anything to demystify the text, especially when nowhere in the text (that we can read currently) does it use that terminology- but that's not specific to you or this conversation.
I could create some elaborate explanation, but the reality is- I wasn't there and creating a speculative narrative does me no good (nor you, unless your goal is to make me look unhinged). I can, however, point to a modern practice of ice-diving among arctic cultures. Such practices are deeply rooted in tradition. So while the assertion that people would be naked in the arctic might seem unfathomable to you, Arctic cultures have been doing it for centuries.
Did the artist take creative liberty because it was as unfathomable to them as it is to you? Maybe- we'll never know. But it doesn't erase the fact that there is a historical and present cultural answer to your question.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 06-03-2026
(06-03-2026, 01:54 AM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I also don't think calling them nymphs does anything to demystify the text, especially when nowhere in the text (that we can read currently) does it use that terminology- but that's not specific to you or this conversation.
It's not my word. Voynich Manuscript researchers have been calling them "nymphs" for 100 years.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 06-03-2026
(06-03-2026, 02:05 AM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(06-03-2026, 01:54 AM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I also don't think calling them nymphs does anything to demystify the text, especially when nowhere in the text (that we can read currently) does it use that terminology- but that's not specific to you or this conversation.
It's not my word. Voynich Manuscript researchers have been calling them "nymphs" for 100 years.
Hence the end of that sentence "but that's not specific to you or this conversation". Its part of the larger mystification of it all and I just can't get behind using that term, especially when the terms "individuals", "people", and "subjects" are all more lexically accurate and available and don't contribute to mass hysteria regarding the manuscript.
RE: 'P' is the key - Rafal - 06-03-2026
Do you have any idea what the text actually say and why is it written this way?
Is it some kind of cipher?
Let's suppose that Marco Polo was indeed to Polar Circle and described his adventures like he did with his other travels.
So why did he encrypt it only this time?
And why the imagery doesn't show anything polar? Icebergs, polar bears, seals and so on. Instead we have naked ladies bathing and plants which wouldn't survive in polar climate.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 06-03-2026
I'd rather not speculate about the written until decoding, since I don't think speculation does us any good. However, I do feel that can say that I have proven two previously undocumented constant features of the manuscript, in addition to a real world positioning.
I think the important thing to remember about Marco Polo, is that the expeditions didn't really begin with him- they began with his father and his uncle. The record of "Marco Polo Travels" only covers partial information from when he joined. Interestingly, the stars in the ending of the Voynich seem to fluctuate between three variants: a full red star, a star with a red dot, and a yellow star- with the red dotted star being the one introduced later in the folio. We can't say this is a standalone text- we can only say it's the only one we've seen. The content and quality of the work implies it had an intended audience.
Based on the carbon dating results and materials dating results, I think the most logical conclusion would be that it was transcribed after their passing, but I do believe the Voynich & 'Map with Ship' belonged to the same person at one point at a bare minimum.
Icebergs are notoriously difficult to draw, due to the complex interactions of shadows, reflections, and lights. In fact, one of the earliest representations we have in contemporary art, was not until the 1800s; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
As far as animals go, one could argue that in fact, all of the species represented in the associated folios are arctic: a mountain goat, arctic gar/char, lobsters, and a snow leopard or arctic lynx.
Regarding the floral varieties, there are whole taxonomies in the poppy family that do in fact survive in the arctic, as well as other native flora.
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RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 07-03-2026
After a closer analysis, it does appear there are more than 3 types of stars in the margins; a full red star, a star with a red dot, an empty star, a star with a yellow dot, and star with a yellow dot- so I would like to amend an earlier statement. I think this is probably part of the logic for the 'multiple scribes' theory that is out there.
If this document is part of the Polos' adventures, or whoever authored 'Map with Ship', which I do believe a chemical analysis of the staining would likely confirm, then it may be able to shed light on additional contributors.
RE: 'P' is the key - Jorge_Stolfi - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 07:45 AM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After a closer analysis, it does appear there are more than 3 types of stars in the margins; a full red star, a star with a red dot, an empty star, a star with a yellow dot, and star with a yellow [brown?] dot
However there is no evidence that the colored paints are original, and some strong evidence that they were applied a century or more after the writing and drawing, when the book had changed owners. So it is safer to disregard the red paint,
There is a light yellow paint that is different from the other colored paints, in that it is nearly transparent, and is used throughout the book on a very consistent manner. In particular, it is used in the hair of most of the nymphs, and on most stars -- either as a filling or just as a round splotch in the middle. That yellow paint may be original; the evidence above does not apply to it. Given its uses, it was probably light yellow originally too (that is, it is not some organic dye that faded with time).
So maybe those stars were originally just either yellow or unpainted.
The brown dots or circles at the center of some starts seems to be in the same ink as the outline, so they probably are original too.
However, in most of the Starred Parags section (quire 20), the stars simply alternate yellow and red. If the red paint is not original, presumably those red ones were unpainted, so the alternation would be between painted and unpainted. That is not what coded information should look like.
True, on some pages there are hiccups in the color pattern, and a few stars are left unpainted. But on a few pages the Artist clearly missed some paragraphs and thus failed to provide stars for them. In many cases the star is off by one line or more from the start of its parag. On a couple of pages the Scribe apparently smashed half a dozen parags into one big parag, with a smattering stars randomly placed besides it. To me, these anomalies say that the stars are mostly decoration, like the bullets on our powerpoint presentations.
Maybe there was supposed to be some meaning in the dots at the center and/or the number of rays (which varies from 6 to 9, once 10). But, given the above observations, I rather doubt it.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 11:47 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(07-03-2026, 07:45 AM)Loose_Spell_9313 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After a closer analysis, it does appear there are more than 3 types of stars in the margins; a full red star, a star with a red dot, an empty star, a star with a yellow dot, and star with a yellow [brown?] dot
However there is no evidence that the colored paints are original, and some strong evidence that they were applied a century or more after the writing and drawing, when the book had changed owners. So it is safer to disregard the red paint,
There is a light yellow paint that is different from the other colored paints, in that it is nearly transparent, and is used throughout the book on a very consistent manner. In particular, it is used in the hair of most of the nymphs, and on most stars -- either as a filling or just as a round splotch in the middle. That yellow paint may be original; the evidence above does not apply to it. Given its uses, it was probably light yellow originally too (that is, it is not some organic dye that faded with time).
So maybe those stars were originally just either yellow or unpainted.
The brown dots or circles at the center of some starts seems to be in the same ink as the outline, so they probably are original too.
However, in most of the Starred Parags section (quire 20), the stars simply alternate yellow and red. If the red paint is not original, presumably those red ones were unpainted, so the alternation would be between painted and unpainted. That is not what coded information should look like.
True, on some pages there are hiccups in the color pattern, and a few stars are left unpainted. But on a few pages the Artist clearly missed some paragraphs and thus failed to provide stars for them. In many cases the star is off by one line or more from the start of its parag. On a couple of pages the Scribe apparently smashed half a dozen parags into one big parag, with a smattering stars randomly placed besides it. To me, these anomalies say that the stars are mostly decoration, like the bullets on our powerpoint presentations.
Maybe there was supposed to be some meaning in the dots at the center and/or the number of rays (which varies from 6 to 9, once 10). But, given the above observations, I rather doubt it.
All the best, --stolfi
Hey Stolfi,
Thanks for the response. I think admittedly, the star concept was a bit pre-mature or maybe poorly described, however this was the guiding logic for me to believe that they indicate a system of ownership/penmanship for the manuscript among contributors.
On this page 103, it seems as though the system is unrefined and no uniform system for star usage was present; lacking stars with the swish that would later become consistent (minus the final star on 103, that also doesn't conform to later usage). By page 104, the system seems to have become uniform with star usage remaining consistent throughout the rest of the manuscript. Once the system seems to have been solidified, easily identifiable differences in writing styles (seems to) become more easily apparent. Like the red stars always seem to have a mid-line arch or angulation on the right side of the text, yellow star seems to have better line consistency although there is some fluctuation, etc.. Being that some of the paints were applied retroactively, it does obviously throw a bit of uncertainty into the mix with the stars.
In my interpretation, the the lack of variation of stars fillings between pages 108 and 116 would simply be a result of one or more of the contributors not being physically present to add additional information.
That said, this isn't an avenue I personally want to place heavy importance on, as I don't think much can be learned from them until the manuscript is decoded- other than broad analyses. It was mostly a fleeting thought at the time, just wanted to amend my statement to avoid making fallacious claims.
RE: 'P' is the key - pjburkshire - 07-03-2026
I added "Journal of Travels" on my Poll/Survey specifically for you but I see it still has zero votes.
RE: 'P' is the key - Loose_Spell_9313 - 07-03-2026
(07-03-2026, 05:44 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I added "Journal of Travels" on my Poll/Survey specifically for you but I see it still has zero votes.
You know, I thought it odd that you posted that poll a short time after my post surfaced- and now here you are seemingly trying to throw in my face that my proposed solution has no support on your poll. Fascinating behavior. As far as why I didn't vote? I see no value.
That said, sometimes ideas simply require time to catch wind. It would surely put Marco's final words in stark perspective though would it not?
"I did not write half of what I saw, for I knew I would not be believed." And here everyone is, still not believing some 700 years later.