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+--- Thread: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph (/thread-5412.html)
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RE: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph - Dana Scott - 03-03-2026
(02-03-2026, 08:16 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.IMHO, it's a coincidental similarity because they are not really the same symbol. When written properly, the Tibetan letter has "curved legs" intentionally turning outward. The quincunx legs are straight.
Also, there is the question of how the meaning of the symbol would have migrated from being a letter to a fraction used by Kepler? The terminology is Latin, but where does the "picnic table" glyph come from?
The real question is then, what is it doing in the VMs as a rare letter and as glyph #6 in the 4 x 17 symbol sequence?
Typed Korean consonant j looks interesting as well:
[b]ㅈ[/b]
Regards,
Dana Scott
RE: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph - Dobri - 03-03-2026
What makes the x glyph unique is the vertical stem above the chevron so that the glyph looks like a vertical arrangement of Τ (Tau) above Λ (Lambda).
RE: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph - Dobri - 03-03-2026
Connecting dots (if any), a table of lots (TL) in medieval astrology was an organization of astrological tables to correspond with the twelve houses (see Reshit Ḥokhmah (Beginning of Wisdom) by Abraham Ibn Ezra, circa 1148).
RE: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph - eggyk - 03-03-2026
(03-03-2026, 03:07 PM)Dobri Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What makes the x glyph unique is the vertical stem above the chevron so that the glyph looks like a vertical arrangement of Τ (Tau) above Λ (Lambda).
Is that actually an attribute of the symbol? As far as I know, the only versions of x that have the vertical stem are those found on f57v, but that page also includes some without.
Most (all?) of the other instances elsewhere in the VMS have no vertical stem, like these.
Unfortunately it may not be possible to date anything based on the invention of the symbol in any case, as it's a fairly easy symbol to draw and may have been independently invented many times, similar to symbols that look like o.
For example, here's a similar looking symbol from a sculpture in "Kankali Tila" from the first century, which I doubt is related to the VMS:
RE: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph - R. Sale - 03-03-2026
Independently invented several times, it would seem. Glyphs are symbols because they have meaning. Why borrow the symbol and discard the meaning?
And just what is the meaning of the "x' glyph in the VMs. Is it even astrological? More than 150 years before Kepler?
Which words is it found in, which pages, which hands? Are the first four examples [Post #14] all from a particular source?
The letter 'o' got used a lot in European literature between 1350 and 1600. Potential examples of the letter 'x' wouldn't be referenced to Asian sources if there was something more compatible with VMs investigations.
If the 15th C. timeline is accepted, this glyph 'x' currently has no peers. Otherwise, it is either an unintentional or an intentional anachronism.
RE: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph - Dobri - 04-03-2026
(03-03-2026, 05:10 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is that actually an attribute of the symbol? As far as I know, the only versions of x that have the vertical stem are those found on f57v, but that page also includes some without.
Most (all?) of the other instances elsewhere in the VMS have no vertical stem, like these.
Unfortunately it may not be possible to date anything based on the invention of the symbol in any case, as it's a fairly easy symbol to draw and may have been independently invented many times, similar to symbols that look like o.
For example, here's a similar looking symbol from a sculpture in "Kankali Tila" from the first century, which I doubt is related to the VMS:
A vertical stem could conceptually be an attribute of the glyph indeed but this reduces the possibility of the glyph being related to Eastern scripts which were accessible along the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. during the 15th century.
It this case, it could be invented by the Author of the cypher manuscript, one option (among many) is to have a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. above a chevron, like in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The Kankali Tila inscriptions were written in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which is the ancestor to dozens of scripts used across South and South-East Asia.
The 'picnic table' was not rediscovered at different times, it was always there as a glyph (with curvy legs and one of the legs being slightly longer than the other) but its meaning changed as languages evolved.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was introduced in the second half of the 13th century with a 'picnic table' glyph having for the first time straight legs of equal length and the same glyph was also used later (with a different meaning) in the middle of the 15th century in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: Origin of the 'Picnic Table' Glyph - R. Sale - 09-03-2026
Here's something visually similar. It's an upper case "A". The last symbol in the first column and scattered above, but replaced by lower case in the rest of the table.
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It's dated 1474, so well before Kepler - at least.