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+--- Thread: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis (/thread-5355.html)
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - JustAnotherTheory - 13-02-2026
Didn't Taccola specifically mention that he was inspired by Kyeser?
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - DG97EEB - 13-02-2026
(13-02-2026, 01:59 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-02-2026, 02:59 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just for reference, perhaps the most complete list of Bellifortis manuscripts:
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One of the links off here is an academic study on Bellifortis and on page 94 of the pdf, there's a rather nice diagram showing links between all of them going back to 1400. Should help narrow down the manuscripts to look at.
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I hope you'll all forgive the use of AI on this occasion but as it's 162 pages of German, I took the liberty of asking Claude to summarise aspects. It's focussed on my line of reasoning, but still useful I think.
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"
**The Big Finding: A Lost Northern Italian Archetype**
Cermann argues that the Bellifortis, the *Büchsenmeisterbuch* Wien 3069, and the "primitive types" group (Nürnberg, München 600, Wien 5014) all derive independently from a **lost prototype most likely originating in *Oberitalien* (Northern Italy)**, specifically the Padua intellectual milieu (p. 59, stemma pp. 94–95). Veronika Pirker-Aurenhammer had already noted "norditalienische Einflüsse" in Wien 3069. The shared motifs include swimming apparatus, the Archimedean screw, the Porus war chariot, and the "Krebs" device — objects with clear Italian engineering pedigree traceable to the circle of Petrus de Abano and his pupils Jacobus de Dondis and Gentile da Foligno.
**Kyeser's Own Cryptographic Practice**
Kyeser used several forms of concealment: the *Notae Bonifatii* (a simple consonant-shift cipher, e.g., "Npcfndp" = "Nocendo"), backwards writing, kabbalistic terms (*agla*, *Meufaton*), and magical incantation formulae. Cermann decrypts the "Npcfndp" on Göttingen 63, f.104v — which Quarg attributed to a wandering scribe's crude farewell. Wien 5278 uses cipher more extensively, including rearranged words on f.27r. The supposed "Albanian incantation" in Chantilly f.153v (which generated excitement in Balkanology) is actually attested in a 12th-century Gurk breviary — undermining claims of exotic linguistic origin.
**Artists and Workshops — What Cermann Actually Identifies**
Frustratingly for anyone seeking named painters, Cermann finds **no individually named artists for most copies**. What she does establish:
- **Göttingen 63** (the luxury 1405 copy): Multiple hands of varying skill. The connection to the **Prague Wenceslas workshop** (*Wenzelswerkstatt*) was proposed early but Cermann is cautious — Quarg's fantasy of Wenceslas-workshop painters joining Kyeser's exile camp is dismissed as "abenteuerliche, groteske Phantasien." The painters are described as **"sachferne Zeichner"** (subject-unfamiliar illustrators) working from Kyeser's sketches.
- **Diebold Lauber workshop in Hagenau** (Alsace): Produced the serially manufactured copies Paris, Frankfurt, and Günther (mid-15th c.), attributed since Schilling 1929 and confirmed by Saurma-Jeltsch 2001. This is a known commercial book production centre.
- **Francesco di Giorgio workshop** is mentioned for Italian parallels but not for Bellifortis copies directly.
- For the Alsatian transmission (Rom 1994, Besançon, Rom 1986), Leng's claim that all three were made c.1430 in a single Alsatian workshop is challenged by Cermann — the dates and hands differ.
**Italy vs. Southern Germany vs. Northern Germany — The Distribution Pattern**
Cermann's stemma reveals a clear geographic cascade:
1. **Northern Italy** (lost archetype, pre-1400)
2. **Bohemia/Prague** (Göttingen 64a, 1402; Göttingen 63, 1405 — both author-supervised)
3. **Alsace/Upper Rhine** (~1410): Rom 1994, Chantilly — earliest transmission outside the author's control. The Vener family (Strasbourg officialdom) likely facilitated distribution. The Markgrafen von Baden (Karlsruhe copy) and Hachberg-Sausenberg are identified as owners.
4. **Southern Germany**: Nürnberg (Büchsenmeister circles), Munich area, Wolfenbüttel
5. **Extended German-speaking areas**: Weimar, Gotha, Erlangen, and even a Hebrew-Yiddish version (München 235)
**No Italian copies survive**, which is notable — the tradition moved entirely north of the Alps despite its probable Italian origins.
**The Oettingen–Padua Connection**
The **Counts of Oettingen**, who were Kyeser's likely patrons:
- Friedrich IV of Oettingen (Bishop of Eichstätt, Kyeser's hometown) had studied in **Bologna and Padua**
- Friedrich III of Oettingen **married Elisabetta da Carrara** (daughter of Francesco I da Carrara, lord of Padua) — she was baptised in the Padua Baptistry and portrayed in the Giusto de' Menabuoi frescoes
- The Oettingen brothers were active in the service of both Duke Stephan III of Bavaria-Ingolstadt (who also visited Padua) and King Wenceslas
Cermann also notes that **Konrad Gruter**, who spent 1393–1424 in Italy and produced his machine book in Padua in 1424 for the Danish king Erik VII, drew on the same Northern Italian engineering knowledge as Kyeser, and there are specific thematic overlaps (hydraulics, pneumatics, diving equipment).
**Painting/Drawing Evolution**
Cermann notes the evolution from Kyeser's own "nüchterne, z. T. drollig-naive Zeichnungen" (sober, partly comically naive drawings) in the 1402 first draft (Göttingen 64a) to the more elaborate painted scenes in the 1405 luxury copy (Göttingen 63). Feldhaus's 1906 attempt to establish a chronological sequence by comparing twelve manuscripts side-by-side **failed** because the stylistic degradation patterns were too complex. Cermann's own approach uses heraldic evidence instead — watching Kyeser's personal arms mutate into generic crusader crosses as copies become more distant from the author."
**On Hartlieb**
Cermann's treatment of Hartlieb is extensive and nuanced, revolving around an identity problem and a transmission question.
The identity problem. The extended German version of the Bellifortis (the so-called Iconismis bellicis, preserved in Wien 3062, Tenschert, Berlin 2041, Berlin 621) contains a Namenmantik compiled by a "Johannes Hartlieb." Cermann raises the question whether this is the same Johannes Hartlieb who became the well-documented personal physician (Leibarzt) of Duke Albrecht III of Bavaria-Munich from the 1440s onward. She notes that this cannot be decided with certainty. Scholarship (Wierschin 1968, Fürbeth 1992) has argued for multiple people named Hartlieb, and the attribution of both the Namenmantik and the extended Bellifortis version to the Munich Hartlieb has been contested — hence the convention "(Ps.-)Hartlieb."
Frank Fürbeth suggested the "Wiener Hartlieb" (the Namenmantik compiler, active in Vienna c. 1435) might be the father of the Munich Hartlieb. Cermann marshals a detailed biographical chronology across what may be two or three generations of the Hartlieb family from Möglingen/Markgrönningen.
What is beyond doubt: the Munich Hartlieb's own handwriting appears in two marginal additions in Wien 3062 (fols. 41v and 42v), confirming the manuscript passed through his hands. He received his medical doctorate in Padua on 11 May 1439, where Paduan records identify him as Joh. de Alemania familiaris d. Imperatoris (i.e., of King Albrecht II). He was also in Vienna in 1437.
The mediating role. Cermann's key argument: Hartlieb (whether the elder "Wiener Hartlieb" or the Munich physician) could have played a Mittlerrolle (mediating role) — or even held authorship — for the extended Austrian version of the Bellifortis. Her reasoning: he participated in the Hussite wars, was successively in the service of Duke Ludwig VII of Bavaria-Ingolstadt and then Albrecht III of Bavaria-Munich, dealt in necromancy, astrology and mathematical sciences, and was demonstrably in Vienna in 1437. Crucially, the family name Kyeser can be documented in Ingolstadt in the 1440s–50s, and the Innsbruck copy of the Bellifortis was likely produced there. Cermann proposes that Hartlieb could theoretically have encountered Kyeser's work in Ingolstadt and subsequently made it known in Vienna.
However, she immediately qualifies this: the basis for the Neukonzeption (the extended version) was not the 10-chapter version known in Ingolstadt, but rather a representative of the 7-chapter version combined with material from the "primitive types" group — most closely resembling the Palatinate manuscript Rom 1888 (c. 1430), which has a Rhenish rather than Bavarian descent.
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - DG97EEB - 13-02-2026
So that was useful because it led me to Keyser's ciphering..So it wasn't just Fontana doing this at the time.
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RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - DG97EEB - 13-02-2026
(13-02-2026, 07:41 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So that was useful because it led me to Keyser's ciphering..So it wasn't just Fontana doing this at the time.
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From the same.. it looks upside down but isn't.
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - DG97EEB - 13-02-2026
(13-02-2026, 05:41 PM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-02-2026, 12:08 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
look at page 314 and the stars on the flag, and then look at the stars on f67v2 - there's a mix of 6 and 7 pointed stars drawn in exactly the same poor way...
That's a great find
I looked at a dozen and there's none with stars like this... See how many you find over the weekend...but they're not just like them, they're exactly the same...
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - Bernd - 13-02-2026
I've written about Kyeser's Bellifortis here:
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Kyeser and Vegetius were Taccola's main sources. Fun fact: Kyeser accompanied the future Emperor Sigismund on his crusades against the Turks - which led to a disastrous defeat at the Battle of Nicopolis 1396. Kyeser publicly blamed Sigismund for this defeat and was banished. While Taccola as a fan of Sigismund, Kyeser didn't like him very much.
About the stars - there's a fundamental distance. The Bellifortis - stars are drawn in many straight strokes often crossing each other or leaving gaps. Most VM stars are drawn in one stroke without lifting the pen. gaps or crossed lines are rare.
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - JustAnotherTheory - 14-02-2026
(13-02-2026, 07:41 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So that was useful because it led me to Keyser's ciphering..So it wasn't just Fontana doing this at the time.
Very interesting find. The worms are coming out of the woodwork
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - DG97EEB - 14-02-2026
(13-02-2026, 11:49 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've written about Kyeser's Bellifortis here:Did you look at the stars on page 1 of the thread? I'm not paleographer, but they look pretty darn similar to me .
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Kyeser and Vegetius were Taccola's main sources. Fun fact: Kyeser accompanied the future Emperor Sigismund on his crusades against the Turks - which led to a disastrous defeat at the Battle of Nicopolis 1396. Kyeser publicly blamed Sigismund for this defeat and was banished. While Taccola as a fan of Sigismund, Kyeser didn't like him very much.
About the stars - there's a fundamental distance. The Bellifortis - stars are drawn in many straight strokes often crossing each other or leaving gaps. Most VM stars are drawn in one stroke without lifting the pen. gaps or crossed lines are rare.
Also thanks for the reminder about the other thread .. I do sometimes feel we're all running around desperately rediscovering the same stuff independently, but that also sometimes the obvious answer is the right one .. your thread is excellent, but this one adds the star comparison, the ciphering, and the excellent academic paper that traces all of them...
RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - JustAnotherTheory - 14-02-2026
(14-02-2026, 07:50 AM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do sometimes feel we're all running around desperately rediscovering the same stuff independently
Maybe this can be helpful:
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RE: Konrad Kyeser's Bellifortis - DG97EEB - 14-02-2026
(14-02-2026, 07:19 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-02-2026, 07:41 PM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So that was useful because it led me to Keyser's ciphering..So it wasn't just Fontana doing this at the time.
Very interesting find. The worms are coming out of the woodwork
i've not had a chance to read through fully, but this is very interesting and connects to the stars You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.