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+--- Thread: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity (/thread-4919.html)
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Jorge_Stolfi - 09-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 12:50 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Had the MS not been painted at all, the drawing quality would have hardly stood out as being 'poor'.
Definitely. To appreciate the drawings one needs the reverse of the contemplation skill of Tibetan monks: one must stare at a page and force the mind until one can "unsee" the colors.
We must also take into account that the Scribe must have been forced to rush through each Herbal page, given the large number of pages in that section.
Quote:The herbal drawings are far better and more detailed that those in alchemical herbals.
Indeed. But I these alchemical herbals were rough jobs because of their intended purpose, and the nature of the "industry" that produced them. Their authors had no reason to be accurate, realistic, or even nice. I don't think that the VMS was meant for that purpose.
Quote:The cirdular diagrams are not worse than others in contemporary manuscripts.
Indeed, but we must not compare the VMS to "luxury" manuscripts produced by professional artists for rich clients (which unfortunately are those that tend to be most often preserved, scanned, and reproduced). A better comparison would be "technical" manuscripts produced for scholars, navigators, etc.
It also does not help that several drawings were "enhanced" with spurious details (like the "showercap" bonnet/diadems of 72v2 and other pages) by some later owner who was a much worse artist, and may even have been a bored child.
Or check the root of f2v, for example. The two parts, left and right of the stem, look very different in shape and artistic quality. I cannot avoid the impression that the right half (except for a small section near the stem) is a later "enhancement" too. And the circles with dots on the left half look like they were retraced, so maybe they had slightly better perspective originally.
By the way, a "terrible" thought it just occurred to me: maybe most, if not all, of the roots in the Herbal section were added by this later Enhancer. That is, the original herbal drawings had no roots, or at most just a stub right below the stem.
Note how most roots are squeezed in the lower margin of the page, often right against the edge of the vellum. That space should have been left blank; like the blank margins usually left around text blocks, to allow for possible soiling and wear along the edges of the folios.
All the best, --jorge
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Rafal - 09-09-2025
Quote:The only remaining poor aspects are the human figures.
I would agree that human figures are the worst in VM. Even without the paint added:
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BTW, does the middle girl in the picture have a penis?
Drawing humans is often considered the most difficult in drawing.
We have yet another bias - we are going to forgive more to the painting which shows a tree, house or landscape in imperfect way but
immediately spot tiny wrong details in human proportions.
The nymphs in VM were probably supposed to be pretty but they are ...not
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - ReneZ - 09-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 10:19 AM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The nymphs in VM were probably supposed to be pretty but they are ...not
I once gave a talk about the Voynich MS in my home country, and I could not avoid placing special emphasis on Panofsky's remark:
Quote:... it shows Jewish or Arab influence, probably in connection with the Kabbala; but also Dutch or Flemish influence in the female faces and figures and some Spanish or anyhow southern qualities. This last impression was strengthened in his mind by the character of the greens and red
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 09-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 10:28 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..] on Panofsky's remark:
Quote:... it shows Jewish or Arab influence, probably in connection with the Kabbala; but also Dutch or Flemish influence in the female faces and figures and some Spanish or anyhow southern qualities. This last impression was strengthened in his mind by the character of the greens and red
In my language, this would be called "a steep thesis":
those dozens of yellow-haired / blonde women figures would allow the assumption of North / West Europeans, but not a special regional influence -- especially not by some red and green.
And to bring in the Kabbala: oh boy.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Koen G - 09-09-2025
Blonde or "fair" hair was seen as beautiful all over Europe and thus is seen in art all over Europe. Especially in beings which are traditionally considered "fair", like ladies and angels.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Koen G - 09-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 12:50 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Look at the clothes of a well-illustrated manuscript, for example here:
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It is a typical example where the painter uses different shades of the same paint to create a sense of depth. This is a completely normal thing to do in the 15th century, and it is also completely absent in the Voynich MS.
My view remains that the VM painter did, at times, attempt this kind of shading/highlighting. But they did it so poorly that the end result looks messy or bizarre. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for potential attempts at shading in plants.
Another example becomes apparent when comparing the blue dresses in the Zodiac figures to those in the MS you link. The person who colored the VM seems to have been well-aware of such examples and attempted to emulate the style - unsuccessfully.
When it comes to the anatomy of the figures, both man and beast, I'd say that the VM is only slightly worse.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Jorge_Stolfi - 09-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 01:19 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Blonde or "fair" hair was seen as beautiful all over Europe and thus is seen in art all over Europe. Especially in beings which are traditionally considered "fair", like ladies and angels.
Was that the case only after Roman Empire was taken over by "barbarians from the North", who became the new ruling class?
Or maybe only after the Empire expanded north of the Alps and incorporated many Celtic and Germanic people in its army, who then became Roman citizens?
Are there early Roman or Greek paintings of goddesses with blond hair? I don't recall any in Minoan or Egyptian art. (In the latter, skin was yellow for women, red for men, and maybe blue for gods; but in reality it was probably black very early and in the South, then brown in later periods. But the hair, AFAIK, was always curly black. What about the Ptolemies, and Cleopatra? Many modern images of Alexander have him as blond as Jesus, but there is a famous floor mosaic in Pompeii that depicts him with black hair...)
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - quimqu - 09-09-2025
It’s really strange. One could say that, in terms of difficulty for a person, the skills progress as follows (just think of one’s own development while growing up):
- painting (in a simple style) while copying from other drawings (as Koen shows in post You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
- painting without copying (simple style)
- drawing while copying (at least, some details could be drawn better, like the boots (supposing the scriba was copying, for example, the man with beard))
- drawing from scratch
- writing
- calligraphy
So why is it so upside down in the Voynich? I mean, the easiest things are done the worst…
(OK... the order of 4 and 5 can be changed)
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - ReneZ - 09-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 01:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My view remains that the VM painter did, at times, attempt this kind of shading/highlighting. But they did it so poorly that the end result looks messy or bizarre
You're showing great leniency here :-)
Well, we can't know for sure.
RE: Textual Complexity vs. Visual Simplicity - Jorge_Stolfi - 09-09-2025
(09-09-2025, 02:19 PM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So why is it so upside down in the Voynich?
Things are different today, and fast changing, in terms of school curricula and opportunities at home. But in the time period in question, I would guess that most kids would get access to pen, ink, and paper only in school, and not even in the earliest graders.
For most people, their experience with those instruments must have been limited to writing. I guess that very few people, even among "scribal" professions (including secretaries, notaries, accountants, chroniclers, etc.) would ever try their hand at drawing.
So I think it is quite plausible that the VMS Scribe was well used to writing with quill on parchment, and had developed fair handwriting in Latin or whatever language he used, but had relatively little experience as illustrator.
All the best, --jorge