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+--- Thread: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV (/thread-4868.html)
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - MarcoP - 12-08-2025
Mansions of the Moon wheels with diagrams of the asterisms are not unusual. See for instance You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The names are clearly Arabic but, as it’s often the case, they are badly corrupted. It’s peculiar that the article ‘al’ is rendered as ‘el’. An exception is the third house Al Thurayya, that was translated as ‘cabrelles’, “the small goats”, an interpretation of the Pleiades that is also mentioned by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I think it’s the only translated name. Apparently, the positions of Sathasot and Satalahabia were (accidentally?) switched. Based on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. linked by Rene above - I certainly misread some of the Barcelona mansions:
The script is also interesting. Letter ‘g’ is sometimes rendered as a perfect ‘8’ (see 'virgo'), but, quite understandably, it has a descender rather than an ascender as in Voynichese and in the Voynich marginalia.
Some of the pages, apparently by the same hand, use a looped cursiva instead of the loopless hybrida of the diagram. In that case, the script is not terribly far away from that of the marginalia (e.g. 'muller', Spanish:mujer, woman), a good sample for an hibernian source.
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - Juan_Sali - 12-08-2025
Under taurus can be read: cabrelles and dabaran.
Dabaran seems to be aldebaran.
Cabrelles may be a catalan word for goat. Latin capra, spanish cabra. A reference to the goat constellation.
Add-on:
From You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Cabrelles: goats. The seven main stars, visible to the naked eye, of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. cluster.
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - quimqu - 12-08-2025
(12-08-2025, 11:50 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The script is also interesting. Letter ‘g’ is sometimes rendered as a perfect ‘8’ (see 'virgo'), but, quite understandably, it has a descender rather than an ascender as in Voynichese and in the Voynich marginalia.
Some of the pages, apparently by the same hand, use a looped cursiva instead of the loopless hybrida of the diagram. In that case, the script is not terribly far away from that of the marginalia (e.g. 'muller', Spanish:mujer, woman), a good sample for an hibernian source.
Yes, I've see the "muller" and the "g" that look a bit like in the Voynich MS. There are also de double "r" that look simmilar to the MS "cc"...
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - BessAgritianin - 13-08-2025
(12-08-2025, 08:15 AM)quimqu Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(12-08-2025, 03:17 AM)BessAgritianin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you know the translation of "sar" or "sat" from the following words:No, sorry, the book (the other pages available) is written in Catalan but the moon mansions seem to have strange names, at least, names that I don't understand.
Could it stand for "star"?
In catalan star i estrella or estel, but as the moon mansions seem not to be in common catalan... who knows?
Let us focus just on satalahabia which in Catalan Zodiac denotes Aquarius.
It is well known from Arabic sources as "Sa'd al Ahbija".
In Voynich f67r1 exists as Alahbja.
Note that the stars in Catalan Zodiac are equal the star number in f67r1 equal to seven.
In "Illuminating the Lunar Mansions (manāzil al-qamar) in Šams al-maʿārif ( JSTOR )" under Sad Al Ahbija there are four stars- in Catalan Zodiac too.
A further examin of the stellar references reveals parallels, inviting deeper comparative study.
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - Garlonga - 13-08-2025
I think Pisces' farmauar could be Fomalhaut/Fum al Hut, the mouth of the fish.
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - BessAgritianin - 14-08-2025
I have been studying the Catalan Calendar with its stars and planets and months, etc. However I am still puzzled by the outermost ring.
It seems divided always in three parts for each month with cryptic notations like: "vp. ora --- filia---xq ora"- I am not certain if this reading is quite correct.
What those represent:
A. Liturgical hours
B. Astrological notations- like lucky unlucky days for activities
C. Or something else entirely?
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - oshfdk - 14-08-2025
(14-08-2025, 04:28 AM)BessAgritianin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems divided always in three parts for each month with cryptic notations like: "vp. ora --- filia---xq ora"- I am not certain if this reading is quite correct.
"vp/xq" parts appear to be Roman numerals again ("la XII ora", etc?). Given they are not higher than 12, maybe "ora" is the Catalan for "hour"? Just a guess.
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - quimqu - 14-08-2025
(14-08-2025, 06:30 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="BessAgritianin" pid='69642' dateline='1755142107']
maybe "ora" is the Catalan for "hour"? Just a guess.
Yes, now it is "hora" so it is easy that in the MS it is written as "ora"
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - Jorge_Stolfi - 14-08-2025
"vp" could be the abbreviaton of "vespra" = "eve"
tro l'endemá a ora de Completa, que passá de aquest segle. E açó fo en dia de dissapte, que era la vespra de sent Martí, en lo any de Nostre Senyor 1285
Or of "vespres", which IIUC means "afternoon(s)" or "evening(s)"
"xp" might then be the opposite, "morning" os such...
RE: Catalan Zodiac Rose S.XV - quimqu - 14-08-2025
I think it says things like "la vi ora fins la xi ora". Maybe it is the duration of the daylight (from vi hour until xi hour)