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+--- Thread: An Artificial Construction (/thread-4764.html)
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RE: An Artificial Construction - dashstofsk - 25-06-2025
(25-06-2025, 03:04 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think no matter what algorithm one can propose for randomly generating a lot of pseudo text, it's probably quite trivial to adapt this mechanism for actual encoding, just by adding a bit of constraints on the randomness
I must profess to being largely ignorant about complex cypher algorithms. I can understand why an item of correspondence might need to be encoded so that no third person would be able to read it. Such a correspondence would need to be decyphered only once and read only once. But I cannot understand why a manuscript of this size should need anything similar. If it is intended to be a reference manual for its owner then it will just be too awkward to have to decypher at each reading.
(25-06-2025, 03:04 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it makes sense to test how this would work for non-European languages
I don't think the word-splitting and matrix method would work on normal languages, European or non-European. It works on the VMS because of the curious property of the gallows characters. Gallows words make up about half of the words in the VMS and the majority are k t words. Most of these are placed mid-word and my tables show that they can split words into two independent parts. The words appearing in the matrices make up 30% of all the language B words. No other character in the VMS is able to do anything similar. And this is evidence of artificial construction.
Also I don't know much about non-European languages. I will have to leave it to other people to try this method on those languages.
RE: An Artificial Construction - davidma - 25-06-2025
(25-06-2025, 03:04 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. my tables show that they can split words into two independent parts.
Could these be nulls? Or encoded space characters?
RE: An Artificial Construction - dashstofsk - 25-06-2025
(25-06-2025, 05:32 PM)davidma Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could these be nulls? Or encoded space characters?
It is actually me you quoted.
Are you asking if the gallows characters could be nulls? All of the one-leg, two-leg, bench varieties? Highly unlikely. ~50% of words are gallow words. Their curious forms are one of the defining features of the manuscript and they probably have a higher purpose than just being nulls.
RE: An Artificial Construction - Jorge_Stolfi - 17-11-2025
(25-06-2025, 04:46 PM)dashstofsk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also I don't know much about non-European languages.
Mandarin Chinese words have a fixed structure A B C where
A is zero, one, or two consonant sounds (e.g. b, d, h, k, ʃ, m, tz, ts, tʃ etc.)
B is one, two or three vowels (e.g. a, e, u, ü, ai, uo, iao, ...)
C is empty or a nasal consonal (n or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
The core B can be pronounced in one of four tones (pitch patterns). That is usually indicated by a diacritic on one of the vowels. But another spelling system instead uses a fourth segment D that is a digit 1-4 appended to the word. Words do not inflect -- there are no such things as the case, number, gender, mood, tense, and person concepts of IE languages.
Many other languages of East Asia have a similar word structure, except that the choices in each slot (including the tone) can be very different.
In Semitic languages like Arabic, Hebrew, and Ge'ez, the standard word structure is
P V0 C1 V1 C2 V2 C3 V3 S where C1,C2,C3 are consonants that determine the basic meaning, V0,V1,V2,V3 are either empty or vowels that determine the inflection, and P, S are either empty or certain short prefixes (like the Arabic definite article "al-") and suffixes. There are three long vowel sounds and three short ones; in Arabic both are "a", "i", or "u". In traditional Arabic and Hebrew spelling the short vowels are omitted and the prefix and suffix are attached to the word. When Arabic is rendered in Latin letters, all vowels are written (but the crucial long-short distinction may be lost) and the article "al" is usually hyphenated, as in "al-Andalus"
All the best, --stolfi
RE: An Artificial Construction - ReneZ - 17-11-2025
Thai syllables are similar to the Chinese words above:
A is one or two consonants, but the pairs are very limited. Essentially, the second one can be L or R following a limited set of other consonants
B is a vowel or diphthong
C is empty or a consonant
Syllables may not be complete words. W and Y count as consonants even if at the end of words they sound like vowels.
There are five tones, of which one is 'neutral'. Mandarin also has this but there it is quite rare.
Special for Thai is that vowel length is meaningful, and there are a great many minimal pairs distinguished only by vowel length.