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+--- Thread: Pond creatures (f79v) (/thread-473.html)
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - Koen G - 16-03-2016
I'm quite amazed at the results.
When you have some time, could you maybe have a look a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? It's badly faded, but the lines are still there. They are obscured by green that shines through from the other side though. I primitively traced the lines in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but I wonder what you could get out of it. If this is too much work or too time consuming of course I understand
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - -JKP- - 16-03-2016
(16-03-2016, 09:03 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm quite amazed at the results.
When you have some time, could you maybe have a look a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? It's badly faded, but the lines are still there. They are obscured by green that shines through from the other side though. I primitively traced the lines in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but I wonder what you could get out of it. If this is too much work or too time consuming of course I understand
This is rough, but perhaps it may be helpful.
![[Image: SmallPlantEnhanced.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SmallPlantEnhanced.jpg)
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - Oocephalus - 17-03-2016
MarcoP:
Quote:That line of dots is strongly suggestive of a salamander or newt, “stellio” (“starred”) in Latin.Sorry for the nitpicking, but did "stellio" ever mean a salamander or newt? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says that it was used to mean a gecko or agama, with some confusion between the animals. Of course they might have been confused with salamanders as well, which were also considered a kind of lizard back then.
As for the line of dots on the back, this is also seen in the VMS scorpio, although it is difficult to see under the green paint (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about this). They don't seem to be the same animal, though.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - MarcoP - 17-03-2016
(17-03-2016, 12:58 AM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.MarcoP:
Quote:That line of dots is strongly suggestive of a salamander or newt, “stellio” (“starred”) in Latin.Sorry for the nitpicking, but did "stellio" ever mean a salamander or newt? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says that it was used to mean a gecko or agama, with some confusion between the animals. Of course they might have been confused with salamanders as well, which were also considered a kind of lizard back then.
As for the line of dots on the back, this is also seen in the VMS scorpio, although it is difficult to see under the green paint (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. about this). They don't seem to be the same animal, though.
Thank you Oocephalus, two excellent points!
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I linked before translates "stellio" as "newt".
Genera\ lacertorum plura, ut\ botrax, salamandra,\ saura, stellio
There are many kinds of lizards, such as the botrax, the salamander, the saura and the newt.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a long chapter devoted to Stellio, packed with references to ancient authors. I have not found the time to read it yet.
I find the presence of the line of dots on Scorpio's back very interesting: thank you again!
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you linked (second page, first column) says:
Philologists discuss at length the possible identity of the animals and arrive at different conclusions. Whereas some argue that scorpions are the appropriate candidates others regard lizards and generally geckos as the correct animals.
This certainly is a difficult and interesting subject!
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - Koen G - 17-03-2016
JKP - that's very helpful, thanks! Even more so than I expected.
On your enhanced image I saw two things I hadn't noticed before - one mnemonic and one botanical. I edited the blogpost for a detailed analysis, but here's the gist of it:
Mnemonic:
I'll be short about mnemonics because I think most people don't care
On your image I got a relatively clear view of this region:![[Image: wings.jpg?w=720]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/wings.jpg?w=720)
I take the left figure to represent You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a warrior who got turned into a Hawk by Apollo. I was certain about the beak and the shape of the head, but now I can also see that he's been given two little wings, like those of a bird taking flight. Cute.
The plant on the right represents his daughter Chione, who got shot in the mouth by one of Artemis' arrows. I first thought she has only one "arm", but on your image it's clear that the second arm, which is behind the fist one, is represented by a shadow. I haven't found any original depiction of this myth, but there's a 17th century painting by Poussin, which uses a pose very similar to the one I envision here: arrow in mouth, two arms to the front, one below the other.
![[Image: saff4.jpg?w=720&h=494]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/saff4.jpg?w=720&h=494)
Now for the botanical aspect: I follow Diane in that the manuscript seems to focus more on trade and purchase than on medicine per se. I've also noticed that, when necessary, reference is made to the product as one would buy it, especially in the labels. Now obviously, you don't buy saffron flowers, you buy the threads.
There's a vertical object behind the plant's left-bottom root. I can see it a bit clearer now in your picture. These are saffron threads, the way one would buy them:
![[Image: detailsaffron.jpg?w=720]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/detailsaffron.jpg?w=720)
Just compare: thicker knobs on top, thin lines going down and a tangle in the bottom. This detail was added as a reminder of the product's appearance.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - MarcoP - 17-03-2016
According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1200-1280) "De Animalibus" the "stellio" is the Salamander:
Stellio est salamandra. Est autem etiam stellio animal quadrupes qui ex suo colore sic vocatur quia terga depicta interlucentibus oculis habet in modum stellarum.
The stellio is the salamander. Indeed stellio is a quadruped animal named after its color, because it has painted on its back shining eyes similar to stars.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - Oocephalus - 17-03-2016
MarcoP: Thanks! somehow I missed the reference to scorpions in Henle's paper. This would explain the row of dots on the VM Scorpio's back. However, I'm not sure why anyone would think that the stellio was a scorpion. Pliny says that "in figure it (the stellio) strongly resembles the common lizard". I've also found that Galenus claimed the stellio could hypnotize the scorpion by just looking at it, showing that he thought of them as two different animals.
So probably this was part of the confusion between scorpions and lizards as seen in many zodiac images. Apparently in some parts of the US old people still call a certain kind of lizard "scorpion".
Also thanks for the Albertus Magnus reference! So that shows that some indeed thought the stellio to be a salamander. And if I've understood Gesner correctly, he says on p.85 that some claim that the German name of stellio is "Puntermolch" (colorful newt), but that this is wrong, as this is actually a kind of salamander.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - MarcoP - 18-03-2016
(17-03-2016, 07:12 PM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.MarcoP: Thanks! somehow I missed the reference to scorpions in Henle's paper. This would explain the row of dots on the VM Scorpio's back. However, I'm not sure why anyone would think that the stellio was a scorpion. Pliny says that "in figure it (the stellio) strongly resembles the common lizard". I've also found that Galenus claimed the stellio could hypnotize the scorpion by just looking at it, showing that he thought of them as two different animals.
So probably this was part of the confusion between scorpions and lizards as seen in many zodiac images.
This is what I think too: scorpions were crawling poisonous animals and people who were not familiar with actual scorpions replaced them with something similar they knew.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - Davidsch - 18-03-2016
oops, i always thought this plant came from this movie
"little shop of horrors"You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - Koen G - 18-03-2016
Haha David, it does resemble that one. There's one that comes closer though, but I still have to publish it. It's my favourite one. I'll try to get it online this evening.
Marco, do you know of any paralls for these creatures' tails that makes sense? I'm still intrigued by their being painted over.