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+--- Thread: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. (/thread-4060.html)
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - Aga Tentakulus - 22-11-2023
Based on the map of Europe, the distribution of the seven-pointed star is most likely northern Italy. (southern edge of the Alps).
In the Dolomites up to 2000 m.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - Bernd - 22-11-2023
@Aga Tentaculus
Please do not translate vernacular German plant names to English, no English speaker can make sense of 'seven-pointed star' or 'one-berry'. This is why we have scientific Latin names for organisms which are universally understood in all languages. Or at least use the accepted vernacular English names.
But yes I agree, Lysimachia europaea can be found in the alpine region and was used in medicine. Yet why would anyone draw such plant without its iconic flower? Is there any depiction of Lysimachia / Trientalis europaea in medieval herbals?
(18-11-2023, 03:22 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am quite intrigued by this image as the leaves are clearly identifiable as Paris quardifolia while the flower is also very clearly an Araceae like Arum maculatum or the mediterranean Dracunculus vulgaris. So this illustration mixes two completely different plants.
Also yes, an opening bud of Paris quadrifolia can somewhat look like the VM 'flower' with anthers protruding from the opening sepals, see image attached. I still find it hard to believe anyone familiar with Paris quadrifolia would depict it like this on purpose.
The 'tentacles' look like Drosera, indeed Drosera intermedia has its southernmost distribution in the south alps. It was used in folk medicine, witchcraft and alchemy.
All in all I agree with Julian Sali, the best way to make sense of VM plants is to compare them to illustrations in contemporary manuscripts. Personally I do not believe these are supposed to be accurate depictions of real plants, rather a mixture of different plants or entirely fantastic creations. Especially the roots. The Trento herbal also features strange animals as roots. Is the manuscript as a whole available online somewhere?
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - pedestrian - 22-11-2023
(22-11-2023, 04:22 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Aga Tentaculus
Please do not translate vernacular German plant names to English, no English speaker can make sense of 'seven-pointed star' or 'one-berry'. This is why we have scientific Latin names for organisms which are universally understood in all languages. Or at least use the accepted vernacular English names.
Scientific Latin names are a good idea for sure. Just for interest regarding Paris quadrifolia specifically: while it is usually called Herb-paris, I first came across this plant in English, in northeast England, as 'one-berry' - also formerly known as 'oneberrie', ref You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., who notes a couple of paragraphs down that 'oneberrie' was first properly described in England by William Turner in the 16th Century.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - Aga Tentakulus - 22-11-2023
If you try to classify the plants on the basis of other books, you have to understand that most books are copies of copies of copies ........
But the VM author has drawn very accurately. You don't need to put something together. You just have to understand it.
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Example, f21r, pretty sure Polygonum aviculare. Which is very close to the original and the drawing. But here it is classically far from the norm.
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The time it takes to make a copy doesn't allow you to spend hours on a plant. Therefore only symbolic. If you have the name, you can draw something that fits.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - Aga Tentakulus - 22-11-2023
@pedrestian
Did you see that you have a 4 and a 5 sheet example?
4, 5 and 6 leaves are not uncommon.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - Koen G - 22-11-2023
(22-11-2023, 05:37 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But the VM author has drawn very accurately.
This might be true sometimes (the Polygonum is also one of my favorites), but certainly not the rule. For example the Herb-paris is more recognizable in most other manuscripts, while all three Voynich candidates have issues. If the plants had been drawn "very accurately" as a rule, we wouldn't have been struggling with them for over a century by now
To make matters more complicated, it takes guts to draw four leaves windmill-style like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does. In my opinion, this feature betrays awareness of the traditional way of depicting the Paris Herb. But the plant depicted is clearly not the Paris. And so it often goes.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - Aga Tentakulus - 22-11-2023
Based on the flower stem, I would assign f15 to a shade flower "Maianthemum" or bindweed "Mercurialis".
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In any case, the real possibilities are there. You just have to find them.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - pedestrian - 22-11-2023
(22-11-2023, 05:42 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@pedrestian
Did you see that you have a 4 and a 5 sheet example?
4, 5 and 6 leaves are not uncommon.
Sorry, this is pretty much getting off the topic of comparing structure of plants in the VMS to those in other medieval manuscripts, but to answer your question and say something of really not very much importance about structure as well:
Yes, I'm sure I often see Paris quadrifolia with 5+ leaves in central Switzerland, I don't remember how many leaves on the ones in Great Britain. The plant is pretty distinctive and I'm a careless biologist so I don't think I've ever paid much attention to counting the leaves.
The structure of its flower is more interesting. One might mistake the sepals (which are like small versions of the leaves themselves) and petals (which are much thinner), for each other and thus wrongly count them as eight more 'leaves' just under the berry. If You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is indeed depicting P quadrifolia, it appears to be showing something like this - there are four sepals/petals sticking out sideways, and what might be two more of roughly the same thickness 'coming towards' the viewer. Does one infer there is another pair around the back side? There are no yellow stamens as far as I can see in f5r, but then again the stamens aren't visible on the actual plants most of the time either.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - MarcoP - 22-11-2023
(22-11-2023, 04:22 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. The Trento herbal also features strange animals as roots. Is the manuscript as a whole available online somewhere?
Hi Bernd,
unluckily, the Trento Herbal is not available online (at least to my knowledge). The manuscript was published by Michelangelo Lupo in 1978. In a footnote, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. mentions that the published edition includes a contribution by Lupo himself about the subject of this thread (recurring structures used to represent plants in different manuscripts).
About the illustrations You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: #1, #3, #4 and #5 are closely related, all copies of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.; the root has that characteristic shape with three "branches". As you say, #3 features a flower that is seriously wrong, more similar to Arum than Paris.
#5 has the same text as the Trento Herbal (#3) but in Italian rather than the original Latin. #5 has another major error, since Paris only makes a single flower/fruit.
#2 is a good illustration, consistent with the generally accepted hypothesis that Vitus Auslasser based his drawings on actual specimens.
RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts. - Juan_Sali - 24-11-2023
(20-11-2023, 09:45 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ethel Voynich had this same problem a century ago. Her entry for f5r:Lilium Martagon's drawings of the plant dont match well with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:5r
(Compare [[f15v]])
Something liliaceous? Possibly the Paris; but the drawing suggests a whorl of 9 leaves. Look in MS. If the divisions are midribs, it is probably the Paris.
Later. Have examined MS. It is a whorl of 4 leaves, the colours alternating (dark and light green of upper and under surfaces). There is a suggestion of a fifth leaf; this occasionally occurs. I believe this is the Paris. But also, See Plate 16 left [[f15v]].
See notes + Env. 2 [[Envelope 2 - see footnote 1]]
Strange as this seems, it may be meant for Lilium Martagon. In any case it is the lily family without a doubt.
(I believe 16 left [[f15v]] to be Lilium Martagon. They are related = Liliacae.)
Colouring: light green; calyx green; berry black with white (for bloom?).
From left to right
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. BSB Clm 5905 pag. 197:97r
VMS f15
Real plant