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+--- Thread: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? (/thread-3989.html)
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Mark Knowles - 06-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 10:25 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-05-2023, 07:10 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think one reason the Voynich is undeciphered is that there is too little specialisation going on.
I am not sure whether a specialist can solve the Voynich puzzle better than a generalist. Certainly he/she can work on individual aspects of the manuscript better, but on the other hand, the generalist may be more able to make cross connections (imagery <> text) across sections.
My point is that the combination, for example, of 3 generalists plus 7 specialist Voynich researchers will achieve significantly more than 10 generalists will. At the most we are mostly generalists with very few specialists. Here I think individual specialisation and cooperation can achieve more than generalists can.
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Mark Knowles - 06-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 11:49 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are plenty of good candidate cribs in the MS but they just don't work because of the higher level problem.
I would love to hear about these cribs.
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Koen G - 06-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 11:49 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The reason for me is that this text doesnt 'work' like known ciphers. As a result, we don't even know if there is no meaning at all behind the text, a heavily diluted meaning or more.
I think this is basically it: we still don't even know what kind of thing we're looking at. If the text statistically behaved like a known cipher, we could attack it more vigorously.
The same goes for the images, by the way. We can say some things about them, but at a higher level we still haven't quite figured out what is going on, why we don't understand them more clearly.
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Aga Tentakulus - 06-05-2023
@Koen
People make mistakes. I can use them.
The question. Can I work with a clue, where does it take me. Dead end or keep trying.
It takes an infinite amount of time to know where it leads.
Is Taurus really Taurus, or could it be something else ?
And what about this?
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Mark Knowles - 06-05-2023
(06-05-2023, 09:53 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-05-2023, 11:49 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The reason for me is that this text doesnt 'work' like known ciphers. As a result, we don't even know if there is no meaning at all behind the text, a heavily diluted meaning or more.
I think this is basically it: we still don't even know what kind of thing we're looking at. If the text statistically behaved like a known cipher, we could attack it more vigorously.
Well, there is the question of what we are going to do to address these issues? There are different things that can be done. One thing that I, personally, am working on assiduously is expanding our knowledge of 'known' ciphers. 'Known' ciphers means exactly that 'known', so it is by exploring archives and other sources that we come to know more about ciphers of that time. I certainly have learnt more and discovered evidence that ciphers from the time which the Voynich is carbon dated to were more sophisticated than previously believed. I also am working on discovering more ciphers in archives to expand our knowledge of cryptography from that time. Hunting for material from archives is hard, but progress can be made. I was recently in touch with Dr. George Lasry about his group's surprising discoveries of the Mary Queen of Scots enciphered letters. There are a number of possible lines of enquiry that could lead to more ciphers from the Voynich era. Clearly there are currently significant gaps in the historical record for ciphers of that time, hopefully some of these gaps can be filled.
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Mark Knowles - 06-05-2023
For those not interested in searching for ciphers I would suggest that looking for manuscripts or other documents with even more similar images to those that we see in the Voynich is worthwhile. Some very good work has been done in this area, but there is still a lot more that could be done. I would still argue that Nick Pelling's strategy of looking for a "block paradigm" is not a bad one. We may not be able to find an exact block paradigm, but I think there is a good chance that a partial block paradigm exists out there. There is so much work that can be done, which I would do if I had the time: becoming an expert on herbal manuscripts of the time, becoming an expert on astrological manuscripts of the time and so on.
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Antonio García Jiménez - 07-05-2023
Of course there is a block paradigm: the lapidary of Alfonso X the Wise, in which the stones, some as exotic as the Voynich plants, receive their virtue from the stars of the zodiac signs.
RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - bi3mw - 07-05-2023
For those who want to see for themselves:
Lapidario - Manuscrito H.I.15 de la Biblioteca del Escorial
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RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - Antonio García Jiménez - 08-05-2023
biemw, what you have posted is a facsimile edition of the 19th century. I think it's better to see the digitization of the original.
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RE: Why is the Voynich Manuscript Still Undeciphered ? - bi3mw - 08-05-2023
(06-05-2023, 09:53 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The same goes for the images, by the way. We can say some things about them, but at a higher level we still haven't quite figured out what is going on, why we don't understand them more clearly.
It's not that there aren't some herbal manuscripts from the period, but the problem is that the illustration in the VMS doesn't follow any known tradition. In a strange way, it defies categorization of any kind.