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+--- Thread: Rings are for brides (/thread-3443.html)
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RE: Rings are for brides - R. Sale - 20-08-2022
As to rings being involved in marriage, that is sort of implicit in the subject of this thread. But of course, there are other possibilities. The ring is a symbol across history and across cultures, though, again, not always completely equivalent in those interpretations.
Putting aside the ideology, what about actual rings - actual, physical rings? Trying to stay within the C-14 chronology, what can be said about actual rings? If the VMs nymphs are not all generic nymphs, perhaps the rings are not all generic rings.
The ring associated with the cross on VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. can be interpreted as a reference to Colette of Corbie based on her biography. Her reformation of the Poor Clares is coincident with the C-14 dates.
Juan_Sali found a real ring. The Ring of the Virgin in Perugia. Most of the info is too late for the C-14 dates, but there are indications of an earlier history. If it was visited by a Pope Eugenius in the 1440s, it wasn't exactly unknown back then. And the history of this ring is associated with the story of Santa Mustiola, who is depicted holding a ring.
That would potentially indicate actual, historical interpretations for two of the four VMs ring depictions. And if more was known, other explanations might be rediscovered for all of them.
RE: Rings are for brides - R. Sale - 21-08-2022
Looking for additional, potential connections to historical rings.
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There is a reference to the stories of magical rings in medieval romances. Literature works for me.
In the story of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
He takes a ring from a sleeping maiden.
Anyone care to hazard a guess on the VMs depiction??
The Ring of the Sleeping Maiden.
RE: Rings are for brides - Juan_Sali - 30-08-2022
More about rings:
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., with powerful inscriptions:
The interior of the ring reads ‘Wulnera quinq dei sunt medicina mei pia / crux et
passio Cri sunt medicina michi jaspar / melchior baltasar ananyzapta tetragrammaton’
(‘The five wounds of God are my medicine, the holy cross and passion of Christ are my medicine,
Caspar Melchior Baltazar ananyzapta tetragrammaton’).
RE: Rings are for brides - DG97EEB - 25-06-2026
Another fascinating thread that looked like it had promise and didn't go anywhere...
RE: Rings are for brides - R. Sale - 25-06-2026
I'm not so sure. There are multiple rings in the VMs illustrations. Finding the best interpretation for each ring depends upon connecting with the medieval meme that inspired its VMs representation. This is not always clear because of the obscurity of some historical data and the ambiguity of the VMs - sometimes artistically intentional.
If, the VMs critter is not an armadillo etc., but a version of the Agnus Dei, based on BNF Fr. 13096 f. 18, then the woman with the ring below might be an interpretation of Ecclesia, representing the Church. and its marriage to Christ.
The sleeping woman with the ring and the second representation with the cross have interesting similarities with the dreams of Colette of Corbie, as taken from her biography.
So, the problem of finding connections for the VMs illustrations is to establish what there is that they might be connected to.
There are pages with Christian religious interpretations, with Classical interpretations (the Muses, Ananke, and Philomena), and with pagan interpretations (Melusine of Luxemburg). The wide selection seems to be more observational, but Colette of Corbie was contemporary with the VMs C-14.
Even more has been revealed in the VMs cosmos and the zodiac sequence through the investigations of historical sources. Some of the relevant references here are also dated to the early 15th C.
RE: Rings are for brides - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 26-06-2026
Rings are for brides: no, not really, not always and not everywhere.
The ring ceremony was later pushed by christian churches, but not ubiquitary and common at beginning of 15th century.
Even more, Christianity had not full grip to whole of Europe at that time; some folks refused christian beliefs until even centuries after VMS period.
So here we have a problem not only with restrictions of little-known ring weddings, but also in connecting christianity with the ring (symbol) itself: there are just no deeper links between Christ and rings.
It is even very hard to find religious christian imagery containing ring pictures of any substantial meaning, or at all.
I could add here that some european cultures already had deep meanings for rings, like rejecting evil spirits, long before.
In one of them it was customs that a new-wed bride ritually bathed with all women of her village and gifted rings of copper and brass to her guests at the end. (Sauna-based, but these folks had an intense bathing culture also tight relations to any water bodies). Could also add that it was seen as very bad luck to bring a cross into the bath (but I lost the source a bit ago, so I should not say it ^^). Still it's fun to review f 79v drawing under this setting.
Needless to say this was a pre-christian ritual and it stayed for long -- they "accepted" forcefully the Orthodox christianity centuries later.
And needless to point that out here;
but the intro statement of this thread is a bit "short".
RE: Rings are for brides - MarcoP - 26-06-2026
(26-06-2026, 03:41 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rings are for brides: no, not really, not always and not everywhere.
...
It is even very hard to find religious christian imagery containing ring pictures of any substantial meaning, or at all.
I fully agree with the first statement: rings are very ancient objects and have a number of meanings. Marriage is only one of them (by the way, marriage-rings date back to pre-Christian times). Ten years ago, we discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., just as an example of a totally different meaning. Rings were very frequent in European medieval magic.
I disagree with the second statement. Rings are present in Christian religious images, and they are not very hard to find. Two classes of religious illustrations that typically feature rings with substantial meanings are the “mystical marriage” (e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., or St.Mary and Jesus) and portraits of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or popes.
RE: Rings are for brides - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 26-06-2026
I would agree with the first part of examples, rings are of symbolic use involving „marrying“ Jesus, but in connection with a bishop, his ring is a less relevant detail, since his status is normally shown with many other symbols (hat/Mitra, coat, halo etc.).
Wouldn‘t expect many images of bishops where their status is just and only shown by a ring and nothing else.
On the other hand: how extended were the traditions of showing prominent bishops, and their rings, at beginning of 15th century and before?
Both variants of ring use are still far away from showing such symbols with nude normal people…