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+--- Thread: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages (/thread-3368.html)
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - RenegadeHealer - 29-09-2020
Text on the innermost ring of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (“White Aries”):
Quote:oteeol otal chs char cheky chetshy okeeody oteey chekes
Transcription is my own. Voynichese.com has the last word as “chekeen”, which I disagree with. That’s the only place where Takahashi’s transcription and mine differ. I chose to start with the vord to the right of the largest space, in the same general position as the little “start here” bangle on the outer two rings. The point being, I’m not entirely sure which vord in this loop (if any) is the proper vord to put first.
Using geoffreycaveney’s VCI substitutions, I get:
Quote:béz ba(s) ir jal jetə jeprž[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]ə dég[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]ə bé[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]ə jeter[/font][/font][/font]
[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,][font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,][font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]I used “[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]ə” as a placeholder for [EVA]y[/EVA]. I just felt like a schwa was just easier for my brain to parse as an unknown vowel, or vowel-flavored variable, if you will, than y. I wasn’t sure how to parse [EVA]otal[/EVA], hence the parentheses around the s.[/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,][font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,][font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,][font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]To be honest, this string of graphemes doesn’t make my hippocampus light up, the way, say the meaningless gibberish chorus of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. did. But then again, I’ve never studied any Slavic languages, so I’d be interested to hear any L1 or experienced L2 speakers of Slavic languages’ take on this.[/font][/font][/font][/font]
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - ReneZ - 29-09-2020
A better test (than just a brief 'sentence') would be to take half a page from quire 13.
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - geoffreycaveney - 29-09-2020
(29-09-2020, 12:18 AM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Text on the innermost ring of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (“White Aries”):
Quote:oteeol otal chs char cheky chetshy okeeody oteey chekesUsing geoffreycaveney’s VCI substitutions, I get:
Quote:béz ba(s) ir jal jetə jeprž[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]ə dég[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]ə bé[font=-apple-system, system-ui, BlinkMacSystemFont,]ə jeter[/font][/font][/font]
I used “ə” as a placeholder for [EVA]y[/EVA]. I just felt like a schwa was just easier for my brain to parse as an unknown vowel, or vowel-flavored variable, if you will, than y.
I’d be interested to hear any L1 or experienced L2 speakers of Slavic languages’ take on this.
Thanks Renegade! I will have to study my Sorbian resources to see if I can make any sense out of this reading, but it doesn't look too bad as a natural language-like string of text at first glance.
The schwa is not a bad choice for EVA [y]; in my own modified Slavic VCI I am now just using <#>. (Please note Koen's new result that combining his best verbose cipher analysis with treatment of [y] as a null increases h2 conditional entropy to 3.20, the best such result yet!)
Also note that I now use <rj> rather than <rž> for EVA [sh].
And EVA [od], like EVA [d], will be complicated: I mainly read [d] as <c> now, a logical linguistic result of palatalization of /k/. EVA [od] is even trickier, since /g/ could undergo palatalization to <ž> but also lenition to <h>. They look like completely different sounds but they both arose from historical /g/.
Oh and definitely <bas> now for [otal]; omitting the <s> was a half-way measure in my original VCI system, but it is more consistent with <s> now that I am treating VCI as a Slavic interpretation rather than pretending it could be a purely language-neutral transcription system.
If we read <béz bas> as "bez vas", this means "without you (plural)" in many Slavic languages.
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - geoffreycaveney - 29-09-2020
(29-09-2020, 04:47 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A better test (than just a brief 'sentence') would be to take half a page from quire 13.
Rene, thank you for the suggestion. I suppose one reason to try quire 13 (the "bathing women" or so-called biological or balneological section) as a test is that it would appear to tell a story, so we would expect it to be perhaps more "readable" than medieval medical or pharmaceutical notebook pages, which could be full of obscure abbreviations and specialized notations, which could be difficult for anyone to interpret outside the context of their specific time, place, and culture.
Indeed out of curiosity I already took a look at the very beginning of quire 13, the passage of text at the top of folio page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. through the first four complete lines. If there is any sense to this text at all, we might logically consider this to be "the beginning of the story", if we have a story here at all.
Here is the EVA transcription of these lines:
[kchedy kary]
[dain shey ly] [okeey qokar shy kchedy qotar shedy]
[qokain chal] [ssheol qolchedy chedykar chekeedy ror]
[dackhy lkamo] [orchey qey kain sheeky ltain olkar or]
[shey kar chey] [ykeey lshey kal dy shey or shey qokeedy]
And here is my Slavic VCI reading of this text:
<tiec# tal#>
<co rje# s#> <dé# nal rj# tiec# mal rjec#>
<no jas> <rrjez nšec# jec#tal jetéc# lw>
<catj# stásch> <wje# ne# to rjét# spo ztal w>
<rje# tal je#> <#té# srje# tas c# rje# w rje# néc#>
We can at least see here a glimpse of how a verbose cipher + [y] as a null can get us up to a 3.20 h2 conditional entropy. It may or may not make sense--to us--but it looks more like a natural language text.
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - ReneZ - 29-09-2020
(29-09-2020, 02:19 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rene, thank you for the suggestion. I suppose one reason to try quire 13 (the "bathing women" or so-called biological or balneological section) as a test is that it would appear to tell a story, so we would expect it to be perhaps more "readable" than medieval medical or pharmaceutical notebook pages, which could be full of obscure abbreviations and specialized notations, which could be difficult for anyone to interpret outside the context of their specific time, place, and culture.
Indeed out of curiosity I already took a look at the very beginning of quire 13, the passage of text at the top of folio page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. through the first four complete lines. If there is any sense to this text at all, we might logically consider this to be "the beginning of the story", if we have a story here at all.
Geoffrey, you suppose wrong.
Also, what you present is very, very far from half a page of quire 13.
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - geoffreycaveney - 29-09-2020
(29-09-2020, 02:59 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also, what you present is very, very far from half a page of quire 13.
Here are the first 26 lines of folio page f75r, the first page of the biological section and of quire 13. This passage runs the length of the first long vertical illustration of bathing women on the page. It constitutes more than half of the text on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in my estimation (26 of 46 lines, although these lines may each contain slightly less text because the illustration occupies more space).
EVA:
[kchedy kary] [okeey qokar shy kchedy qotar shedy]
[dain shey ly] [ssheol qolchedy chedykar chekeedy ror]
[qokain chal] [orchey qey kain sheeky ltain olkar or]
[dackhy lkamo] [ykeey lshey kal dy shey or shey qokeedy]
[shey kar chey] [ckhey r ain ol ol sheedy qokeey qoky]
[pchey keeor olky] [dar okey qokain chcthy qokeedy qoky]
[pchedy qokshdy] [ytain chedy qokar chy lol chedy qoky]
[sor chey qotardy] [dsheckhy qokain chckhy lshedy okeedy]
[qokchdy chcthy lo] [qokedy qokan checkhy qokar olchedy sal]
[dshor qotar chdy] [shey qokain chckhy dy otey tedy lchedy]
[qokeedy qokain oly] [qokeedy dy qokal okar shedy dor chekam]
[ssheckhy qokal oly] [shey r ol cheey shey dy ol shedy qoky]
[pchedy keedy qokedy] [qokedy qokedy qokedy qokain olshedy]
[sain ol keeshy qokain dy] [olshedy qokain chckhy qokain otar aly]
[sain qokain qol keeoly] [saiin chedy sol or shedy okchdy qoky]
[dshedy qokar sheedy lch] [shokain chy otshedy qokain chedy]
[pchedar shepchy lshedary] [dal shal shy kol shedy qokam]
[sol sheedy qol shedy qol] [otain char sar oly]
[qokshedy qol shey qoky] [shey ithey qokain ar]
[ry shey qor chey lchey lo] [ydain shey qokain]
[oqekain chey qckhsy or] [ysheor ol lor am]
[odar shey qokain chedy] [or shey kar chedy sar]
[pchey kshey qokeey qokal] [sshey qol chedy qokam]
[qokain olkeey qolkary] [sain checthy lor ol]
[saiin shckhy qokeedy shy dy] [qokeedy lchedy ram]
[dain ol sheol dain ol qoly] [dar ady]
Slavic VCI:
<tiec# tal#> <dé# nal rj# tiec# mal rjec#>
<co rje# s#> <rrjez nšec# jec#tal jetéc# lw>
<no jas> <wje# ne# to rjét# spo ztal w>
<catj# stásch> <#té# srje# tas c# rje# w rje# néc#>
<rje# tal je#> <tje# l o z z rjéc# né# n#>
<Pie# téw zt#> <cal de# no ipj# néc# n#>
<Piec# nrjc#> <#po jec# nal i# sz jec# n#>
<rw je# malc#> <crjetj# no itj# srjec# déc#>
<nic# ipj# sch> <nec# nu jetj# nal žec# ras>
<crjw mal ic#> <rje# no itj# c# be# pec# šec#>
<néc# no z#> <néc# c# nas dal rjec# cw jetás>
<rrjetj# nas z#> <rje# l z jé# rje# c# z rjec# n#>
<Piec# téc# nec#> <nec# nec# nec# no zrjec#>
<ro z térj# no c#> <zrjec# no itj# no bal as#>
<ro no ns téz#> <ro jec# rz w rjec# dic# n#>
<crjec# nal rjéc# š> <rjdo i# brjec# no jec#>
<Piecal rjePi# srjecal#> <cas rjas rj# tz rjec# nás>
<rz rjéc# ns rjec# ns> <bo jal ral z#>
<nrjec# ns rje# n#> <rje# pje# no al>
<l# rje# nw je# še# sch> <#co rje# no>
<chneto je# ntjr# w> <#rjew z sw ás>
<žal rje# no jec#> <w rje# tal jec# ral>
<Pie# trje# né# nas> <rrje# ns jec# nás>
<no zté# nstal#> <ro jepj# sw z>
<ro rjtj# néc# rj# c#> <néc# šec# lás>
<co z rjez co z ns#> <cal ac#>
I still think it "reads" fairly well as natural language-like text with a typical West Slavic phonological structure. It is worth noting a couple details about a couple specific vords/words:
[qokeey] / [qokedy] / [qokeedy] are <né#> / <nec#> / <néc#> in the Slavic VCI reading. These forms very closely resemble the words for "not" and "no" in West Slavic languages. Thus, the repetition of this vord, such as [qokeedy qokeedy qokeedy], would simply read <néc# néc# néc#> and would simply mean "no! no! no!"
You will notice that <nas> / <nás> / <ns> occurs frequently in the half page of text above. "nas" is the Slavic word meaning "us". It occurs frequently and repetitively in such traditional texts as the Lord's Prayer and similar litanies in Slavic languages. Certain lines above such as <rz rjéc# ns rjec# ns> <bo jal ral z#> and <Pie# trje# né# nas> <rrje# ns jec# nás> have such an appearance upon first examination.
In light of the illustrations in this section of the ms, it is curious to note that the very first vord of the text, <tiec#>, may possibly be read as a form of the West Slavic verb "téci", "téct" (Czech) or "ćec" (Upper Sorbian), meaning "to flow".
Geoffrey
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - RenegadeHealer - 29-09-2020
(29-09-2020, 01:44 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If we read <béz bas> as "bez vas"
Is there good historical evidence for a /b/ --> /v/ sound change, or vice versa, in any West Slavic dialects since the middle ages? I'm aware this is a very common sound change and allophone pair, because they're produced at the same place of articulation. But does the /b/<-->/v/ variation apply specifically to the time period and language areas you're talking about here?
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - geoffreycaveney - 29-09-2020
(29-09-2020, 07:16 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-09-2020, 01:44 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If we read <béz bas> as "bez vas"Is there good historical evidence for a /b/ --> /v/ sound change, or vice versa, in any West Slavic dialects since the middle ages? I'm aware this is a very common sound change and allophone pair, because they're produced at the same place of articulation. But does the /b/<-->/v/ variation apply specifically to the time period and language areas you're talking about here?
No, not really to be honest. It could still appear more as a result of the unusual writing system, in which I do not identify a distinct glyph or sequence specifically to represent /v/. To be honest I would rather expect <was> than <bas> for this Slavic word, but again, we cannot expect perfect consistency or phonemic accuracy from an author writing in a very unusual writing system. It is also possible that these particular vords do not actually mean Slavic "bez vas" here. Accurate interpretation of a couple vords/words in isolation is still quite difficult at this stage of the investigation.
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - aStobbart - 29-09-2020
(29-09-2020, 07:44 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-09-2020, 07:16 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-09-2020, 01:44 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If we read <béz bas> as "bez vas"
Is there good historical evidence for a /b/ --> /v/ sound change, or vice versa, in any West Slavic dialects since the middle ages? I'm aware this is a very common sound change and allophone pair, because they're produced at the same place of articulation. But does the /b/<-->/v/ variation apply specifically to the time period and language areas you're talking about here?
No, not really to be honest. It could still appear more as a result of the unusual writing system, in which I do not identify a distinct glyph or sequence specifically to represent /v/. To be honest I would rather expect <was> than <bas> for this Slavic word, but again, we cannot expect perfect consistency or phonemic accuracy from an author writing in a very unusual writing system. It is also possible that these particular vords do not actually mean Slavic "bez vas" here. Accurate interpretation of a couple vords/words in isolation is still quite difficult at this stage of the investigation.
I see you omitted the text next to the nymphs, the fact that the text is in a different orientation makes me think it must be related to the drawning. I allways tought of it as labels or maybe a description.
This is the text according to the Takeshi transcription:
Quote:sal okeedy
daly ychey
sols daro
ychty
saino
saldy
dainy
What do you think? Could you make an interpretation using your system?
RE: frequent Voynich vords in Slavic VCI and West Slavic languages - RenegadeHealer - 29-09-2020
That’s going out on kind of a slender limb, then, to allow this degree of freedom.
Have you tried sorting the words of a Czech or Sorbian text from the Middle Ages by frequency rank order, converting this using your model to Voynichese, and seeing if words (well, vords at this point) occur with any regularity in the VMs? If so, do they seem to occur in similar line, paragraph, and page contexts as they do in your Slavic codex? Things should start looking pretty promising on these fronts pretty quickly, if this model is worth exploring and refining further.