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+--- Thread: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts (/thread-2574.html)
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RE: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts - Koen G - 25-06-2026
It certainly doesn't hurt to bump interesting old threads every once in a while. I notice that I tend to forget most of what was discussed a couple of years ago, unless it was something that I took a special interest in (and even then....).
I wonder how our perspective on the foldouts would change if it is true that the MS wasn't necessarily meant to be bound.
RE: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts - bi3mw - 25-06-2026
(25-06-2026, 09:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder how our perspective on the foldouts would change if it is true that the MS wasn't necessarily meant to be bound.
Whether they're bound or not, I think there are some compelling indications that the “sections” still exist. So, in my opinion, not much would change.
RE: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts - oshfdk - 25-06-2026
(25-06-2026, 09:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder how our perspective on the foldouts would change if it is true that the MS wasn't necessarily meant to be bound.
I think these are two separate questions: whether the manuscript was actually kept for a long time as separate leaves and whether the manuscript was designed to be bound eventually. While I find it quite possible that the manuscript was kept as a stack of bifolios (or whatever they are called) for many years, the fact that the gutter space free of any text or drawing is present on almost every bifolio with rare exceptions that could have been intended as centerfolds, to me is a very clear message that the creators at least thought about binding it into a book. While the creators were comfortable with writing over the folds like on f102 (if I remember correctly), they would never write on the gutter. If the manuscript was designed to be kept forever as separate leaves, there would have been no reason to keep the gutter empty, it would be just another fold.
RE: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts - Koen G - 26-06-2026
Well, Lisa's proposal is that they were kept as folded leaflets basically, so the fold is indeed by design. Whether or not this is true is still completely up for debate, but it's an interesting scenario to ponder. And of course, foldouts absolutely play a part in this.
The only section that's bound in order (Zodiac) is actually bound as "singulions", and it's all foldouts. It's also the only section where an indisputable order is dictated by the imagery, and where someone added marginalia that again have to do with a sequence (the months).
RE: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts - rikforto - 26-06-2026
(25-06-2026, 10:19 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While the creators were comfortable with writing over the folds like on f102 (if I remember correctly), they would never write on the gutter. If the manuscript was designed to be kept forever as separate leaves, there would have been no reason to keep the gutter empty, it would be just another fold.Question for those who know more about these manuscripts as physical objects: Is this not resolvable if the scribes were simply following conventions for writing these kinds of pages? That is, did scribes avoid the gutter out of habit for this kind of singleton irrespective of the intended final product?
And oshfdk, I tend towards your interpretation of the evidence, irrespective of the answer here! I'm just wondering if this is indeed a logical necessity.
RE: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts - oshfdk - 26-06-2026
(26-06-2026, 12:10 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is this not resolvable if the scribes were simply following conventions for writing these kinds of pages? That is, did scribes avoid the gutter out of habit for this kind of singleton irrespective of the intended final product?
Maybe, but on the other hand they did cross the gutter when drawing the balneological section part for what could be the centerfold. Given the overall whimsical quality of the artwork and playful use of holes in the vellum (there was a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) I would be surprised if the artist/scribe just didn't think about drawing in the gutter more often, unless there was a purely technical reason to avoid this.
RE: Medieval Manuscripts with Foldouts - Zauriek - 28-06-2026
(26-06-2026, 11:49 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.he only section that's bound in order (Zodiac) is actually bound as "singulions", and it's all foldouts.Reminds me of a post colony indigenous Mesoamerican codex format. Like the codex boturini.