The Voynich Ninja
If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! (/thread-1879.html)

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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 04-05-2017

Just an update: Go here to use cipher
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The first post was a trial run and I had to think of how the rings were setup so that voynich words could be enciphered.  The alberti cipher for the voynich was setup using clever gemini, because I noticed how the voynich o’ were spread out by a power system x1,x2-2, x3-5 and so on, so that each encoded letter increments by one more position than the last.  And since o is the most popular letter I tackled the cipher in this regard.  The first shift for the letters is 1, Second shit is 2, and Third shift is 3 an so on.


Here is what I believe, but not the final cipher for what the voynich ms implemented.  More VMS letters need to be added around the outer ring but I’m tired for now.  I’m sticking with the shift encoding mechanism though.
 
Outer Ring: ABCDEFGILMNPOQRSTUXV1234
Inner Ring: zanihgmley&rptfsvocdubxq
Shift=1
Increment=1
Length=1

Ani=old woman kor

Autem= however, on the contrary daiin
Cum= when chol
Sed= but  dar
Ni= not, but dy
Quod= that, which, who aiin
Di= God ct
Imi=lowest, last ror
Imis=lowest,last rory
 
[Image: albertivoycirpher13.png]



RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Davidsch - 04-05-2017

Tom, I think it is better if you would simply focus on 1 word and not try to do everything at the same time.

Take 1 word, for example 89 (dy)
Try to think of all the possible combinations.
Now, take a long word with 89 and do it again.
Then, move forward with longer words and so on.

if you solved one 2-gram such as 89 for 95% of the words, 
you have also solved other letters because you will have to maintain integrity on those as well!


Here are all those words which contain dy:
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - nickpelling - 04-05-2017

An Alberti cipher is one of the things we can be sure Voynichese is not. In fact, the two are close to opposites in all useful senses.

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - VViews - 04-05-2017

Please, can someone fix Davidsch's post (or Davidsch can you please fix it?)?
That massive list should be hidden between spoiler tags, it is a real pain to scroll through this type of post.

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 04-05-2017

(04-05-2017, 01:52 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An Alberti cipher is one of the things we can be sure Voynichese is not. In fact, the two are close to opposites in all useful senses.

Hi Nick,

Are you suggesting this statement, because of the carbon dating?  This cipher does in fact eliminate a frequency analysis which would indicate this mechanism.  Why are they opposites can you explain the vague statement?

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - R. Sale - 04-05-2017

With all due respect to everybody, are we going to go around the block again with this recycled methodology? A theory is proposed - a theory is picked apart - repeat - repeat. But perhaps there is a different approach - a theory is built up through collaboration and collective efforts.


That being said, it is my understanding that the the possibility of the VMs language as a simple substitution of a natural language has been eliminated. So the whole premise of VMs Glyph #1 being equivalent to Letter 'A' is problematic. Specifying the correct interpretation of a VMs Glyph is the problem. And having the large numbers of potential equivalents is hopefully not the answer.

Attempts to interpret individual glyphs have been made. An example has been made of the 4 x 17 symbol sequence of VMs f57V. I found that the fifth symbol in this sequence not only has three different interpretations: medieval numbers, Greek alphabet & Roman numerals (inverted) besides being the letter 'v' inverted. In addition, each of these interpretations is given a positional confirmation for the three different interpretations.

The medieval numbers "4" and "7" are properly spaced
The Greek letters lambda and omicron are properly spaced in a counter-clockwise direction.
The Roman numeral "V" = '5' is properly placed as the fifth glyph in the sequence, although inverted.

The information per se is pretty standard, the systems of information are certainly standard for medieval Europe at the time of VMs parchment production. The question is whether to take such a set of occurrences seriously. We need to build on what the VMs gives us, rather than to impose some preconceived notions.

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 04-05-2017

R sale this cipher, if you are implying, that it is a simple substitution cipher, it is not.  This cipher masks a frequency analysis which is obvious with what is going on with VMS letters.  The reason why it its not a simple superstition cipher is because of the variable period mechanism and its a polyalphabetic.  For example, a voynich letter (o) can take on different letter equivalents and not a 1-1 simple substitution.

Another factor for my arrangement of voynich glyphs which can sit on more than one outer ring letter is so that other Latin words can be formed by many (vms o) which sit on different positions of voynich vords.

The VMS glyphs look to me as if its a math formula of some sort and how it does look like a system.

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 04-05-2017

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Well I believe the last sentence in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. describes the water lilly.

[Image: lotus.png]

[Image: albertivoycirpher14.png]

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 04-05-2017

So if there are multiple options where to put the glyph, how do I know which is the correct one?

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 04-05-2017

(04-05-2017, 09:48 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So if there are multiple options where to put the glyph, how do I know which is the correct one?

The cipher is complex and once we transcribe a full page in Latin which holds to proper syntax and also conforms to this cipher then we know we have something.  Imagine a jigsaw puzzle like a chess game on star trek that has 3 different levels, you have to move to the square that fits but its the unknown.  The correct one is the one that forms proper grammar to the voynich is what yields the single option out of multiples.