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+--- Thread: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... (/thread-1451.html)
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - ReneZ - 12-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 09:05 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Which folio is Ricinus?
Folio 6v.
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - R. Sale - 12-01-2017
JKP,
If I'm reading it correctly, the Janick quote says "alligator gar". A gar is a type of fish.
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - -JKP- - 12-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 10:21 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP,
If I'm reading it correctly, the Janick quote says "alligator gar". A gar is a type of fish.
Thanks, R. Sales. I stand corrected. I didn't know it was a kind of fish.
Courtesy of Wikipedia, the alligator gar (fish). That skinny mouth doesn't look like the kind that opens wide but I notice from other pics that it has some nasty teeth!
![[Image: 1280px-Alligator_Gar_10.JPG]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Alligator_Gar_10.JPG/1280px-Alligator_Gar_10.JPG)
![[Image: image.jpg?q=f79v-347-1494-409-415]](https://voynich.ninja/extractor/image.jpg?q=f79v-347-1494-409-415)
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - Koen G - 12-01-2017
Well, at least it's a fish...
Edit: JKP you sneaky editor
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - Emma May Smith - 12-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 09:40 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In Post #2, Emma May Smith makes the following statement: "4) The manuscript has been scientifically dated to the period between 1400 and 1450."
I am aware that four parchment samples from the VMs have been Carbon-14 dated and give results that indicate that they were produced in the first part of the 15th Century. And it does seem probable that the VMs was created not too long afterwards. Apparently, however, I have missed the evidence that turns this reasonable and probable hypothesis into an absolutely guaranteed, scientific fact. What is that evidence?
Just because we can't 100% prove everything does not mean that we spend 100% of time doubting everything. When something is overwhelmingly likely we take it as granted until somebody presents an equally overwhelming argument against. We don't, as a common courtesy to other researchers, whose time and patience is a short commodity, continually muddy the debate and waste time with idle "what ifs".
If you, or anybody researching the Voynich manuscript, doubts the date of 1400-1450 then you need to show your evidence or say nothing.
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - Koen G - 12-01-2017
I fully agree with Emma's opinion on the dating of the vellum. It appears to have been done in a scientific manner, so we should dare to accept at least this date range.
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - Anton - 12-01-2017
I guess R.Sale does not put the carbon dating under suspision, but he speaks about the MS having been written on old stock vellum. As I recall, there are counter-arguments to that in terms of style, in particular the marginalia style, aren't there?
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - Emma May Smith - 12-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 11:01 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess R.Sale does not put the carbon dating under suspision, but he speaks about the MS having been written on old stock vellum. As I recall, there are counter-arguments to that in terms of style, in particular the marginalia style, aren't there?
It doesn't need a counter-argument. The probability of unused parchment being kept for decades is so low that we can safely ignore it. Even if you can find examples of unused parchment, that will never negate the fact that most was used shortly after manufacture. The Voynich manuscript was found before carbon dating was thing, so nobody would have thought to 'fake' a date with old parchment. And what is the possibility of a bizarre manuscript such as the Voynich just "happening" to be written on old parchment?
Let me put it another way. The Voynich manuscript could have been written in Nahuatl because an unrecorded sailor went to America before 1450 and made the manuscript then. I've no proof, but it could have happened, therefore we should discuss this hypothesis. Let me show you all the ships from the early 1400s which could have crossed the Atlantic! I don't know which one did, but if one of them could have made the journey, then you can't discount my theory. Of course, we've never heard of this sailor, but that's because he encrypted his journey in an obscure language with a invented script...
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - -JKP- - 12-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 11:01 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess R.Sale does not put the carbon dating under suspision, but he speaks about the MS having been written on old stock vellum. As I recall, there are counter-arguments to that in terms of style, in particular the marginalia style, aren't there?
The pigments have also been tested for their ingredients and they are consistent with approx. 15th-century estimate.
And yes, the marginalia (both styles) are somewhere between 1390 and 1510 (I have lots of data to support this, I just haven't had a chance to write it up yet) and I doubt that they were faked.
RE: J. Janick interpretations of the VMS... - Anton - 12-01-2017
Quote:Even if you can find examples of unused parchment, that will never negate the fact that most was used shortly after manufacture. The Voynich manuscript was found before carbon dating was thing, so nobody would have thought to 'fake' a date with old parchment. And what is the possibility of a bizarre manuscript such as the Voynich just "happening" to be written on old parchment?
That's not about faking but just about finding old parchment and why-not-write an MS on it. There are always fans of old school, in any time. Actually there were people who did not like the advent of printing. As one famous example, Trithemius did not like printing. I don't know if he prefered paper or parchment though.
But yes, all this would look if not unrealistic, but superfluous.