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+--- Thread: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man (/thread-1312.html)
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - -JKP- - 20-12-2016
(20-12-2016, 08:37 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I find this section of the manuscript very hard to interpret in terms of how the image evolved and where and when it's from. These folios have the most medieval air about them, in my opinion, together with the rosettes foldout. I'm not sure of much, so only some loose comments:
- Last time I mentioned this people disagreed, but I insist that he has six fingers.
...
I really can't tell if it's six fingers or five because the top (the rounded part) of the sixth "finger" is very light, almost not there, and seems to meld with whatever that "thing" is that is extending beyond his hand.
On the subject of androgyny, it was very much part of human culture until recently (and still is, in some parts of the world where there is a word that means "the third sex"). In Mediterranean culstures, men regularly castrated themselves (or had themselves castrated) so they could be "goddesses" in the temples, and eunuchs served in palaces into the middle ages.
Also, Pagan attitudes about nudity and sexuality were very different from later Christian attitudes. It was not seen as sinful, but as part of life, and was not kept in the closet. These old cultures saw no need to hide the human body with fig leaves or to deny a gray scale in human sexuality and their artwork was very explicit in documenting these customs.
There's a very interesting documentary film (from the 60s??) on sexual customs in remote Asian villages and some of them still lived this way at the time the film was made, sharing spouses, having children with different men, bringing them up together as one big extended family—all normal activities to them. There are also cultures where effeminate men who like to care for children are welcomed as "aunts" to help share the responsibilities of child-rearing.
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - Searcher - 20-12-2016
This scepter looks similar, a tripartite globe is here, as well.
![[Image: g39.008r.jpg]](http://ica.themorgan.org/icaimages/3/g39.008r.jpg)
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RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - -JKP- - 20-12-2016
I've posted this one before, but it probably wouldn't hurt to repeat it here. This one has the stamens (and extra loops between the main ones) but it's interesting nonetheless because it's rounder than most.
![[Image: ScepterStOmar.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ScepterStOmar.jpg)
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - Searcher - 21-12-2016
I'd pay attention to Prudence with a scepter. As there is a question about gender of the figure, it could be interesting detail, because Prudentia is often depicted with two faces: male and female. Or, maybe, the opposite figure is the part of the one Prudentia?!
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - Davidsch - 21-12-2016
@JKP, good image, but it shows an Italian (Florence?) fleur-de-lis, and such is not conform the VMS (as explained in my posting or anyway in the links)
@Searcher: those are very excellent image examples!. I will use that Munchen one in my files of an example of the changed symbolic meaning of the fleur-de-lis:
The VMS is from much later date and that is why it does not depict Prudentia in the VMS but You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (I am not certain if it's a discussion for this thread, but I am rather convinced that this is the first page in the VMS of which I am sure of the symbolic value as a whole, and more will follow!)
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - -JKP- - 21-12-2016
David, unfortunately, I can't read all of it right now (I have to run, duty calls) but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the nymphs do indeed represent the arts and virtues and I promise I will try to read it this weekend or sooner if I can.
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - Davidsch - 21-12-2016
@JKP: ok please run!
But if you want to make a note of such, may i suggest to use twitter ?
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - Koen G - 23-03-2017
Has anyone ever found an image of a man holding a fleur-de-lys like this?
Also, this thing has always struck me as kind of bendy, as if it's trying to fly away from the man, like a feather in the wind. Has anyone found the symbol drawn in this style?
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - Davidsch - 23-03-2017
(23-03-2017, 09:53 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has anyone ever found an image of a man holding a fleur-de-lys like this?
Such images were uses always for kings, there are thousands of such pictures. Especially in English and French MS. (Every week I see such pictures)
A nice old one from 1411 (that I mentioned You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.is the Harley MS 2332 look at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: April (ff. 4v-5r): A man holding a flower
RE: [split] Scepter/ Fleur de Lys/ Blue Sweater Man - -JKP- - 23-03-2017
Images of Venus (the zodiac Venus, who could be either male or female) often carried grain, flowers, and three-pointed things that look like scepters or plants and which are quite variable.
I've lost track of which images have been posted (some are in other threads), but I specifically looked for scepter-shapes (not necessarily scepters) that had a rounded central point, just in case the shape was significant.
There's one with a rounded top in Carmina Burana and Heldenbuch has two different kinds of scepters:
![[Image: SceptreCarminaHelden.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/SceptreCarminaHelden.png)
I do find the VMS pose interesting, as Koen mentioned. It's like a swallow escaping his grasp, not like something held.