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+--- Thread: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings (/thread-4740.html)
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - R. Sale - 26-11-2025
In VMs Scorpio, there are various contributions in darker ink. From 3 o'clock to 11 o'clock, the nymphs in the outer ring are labeled / named by vords in dark ink. There are also some examples in the inner circle. If there was prior writing underneath, I can't find it. If the dark ink labels are original, then does this writer know Voynichese?
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - Jorge_Stolfi - 27-11-2025
(26-11-2025, 09:14 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In VMs Scorpio [f73r], there are various contributions in darker ink. From 3 o'clock to 11 o'clock, the nymphs in the outer ring are labeled / named by vords in dark ink. There are also some examples in the inner circle. If there was prior writing underneath, I can't find it.
First, note that the original (Rt0) traces may be quite faint now -- like (A), or worse.
Second, there were at least two retracing episodes, Rt1 (medium brown ink) and Rt2 (nearly black ink).
The Rt1 pass retraced all the text in the rings, some of the labels, and a good part of the nymph outlines, as in (K). In particular, the circles were originally drawn using a compass with an ink attachment that left very thin smooth lines, where the ink sometime faltered. The result was basically a scored (dry point) line with irregular dots and dashes in ink. See (B,C). But the Rt1 pass retraced some parts of some circles in freehand, as in (J).
The eye (D) may be original or this Rt1 pass, I can't tell for sure.
The Rt2 pass was the infamous "Boobs Retracer" who added or retraced the same elements that received his attention in Bio and the other Zodiac pages: breasts, nipples, belly buttons, eyes. Maybe the red lips too. And he also retraced some labels. I can't tell for sure whether those labels were original and were skipped by Rt1, or had already been retraced by Rt1. In the second case, maybe thy had faded too.
Either way, Rt1 did leave some bits of those earlier strokes in the labels. Check (E,F,G,H). In (G), for instance, the lower half of the plume is Rt0 or Rt1, and there a bit of that old trace showing besides the Rt2 retrace near the top of the i stroke.
So neither Rt1 nor Rt2 needed to know Voynichese.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - Jorge_Stolfi - 29-11-2025
Hallucinations on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. again, but with the Lazarus Project multi-spectral images (which have about twice the resolution of the Beinecke 2014 scans, namely ~27 pixels/mm instead of ~14 pixels/mm)
This clip is covers the left end of lines 15-19 of page f1r. It is a composite of three narrow-band images from the Lazarus 2016 Multi-Spectral set: MB940IR_012_F (infrared 940 nm) as red, MB700IR_008_F (near-infrared 700 nm) as green, and MB625RD_006_F (red 625 nm) as blue.
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This image shows the multiple retracing passes previously observed in the Beinecke 2014 color scans, namely presumed original traces (Rt0, green labels), first general restoration pass (Rt1, cyan labels), and possibly two retouching passes (Rt2, purple labels, and Rt3, pink labels).
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The dark red-black color or the Rt3 traces means that the ink is substantially opaque to infrared even at 940 nm, as expected from true iron-gall ink Conversely, the lighter orange-yellow color of Rt0 and Rt1 traces means that they are mostly transparent at 940nm, as expected from ocher paint.
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The passes Rt2 (light red traces) and Rt3 (dark reddish-brown traces) may be the same pass with different ink thickness due to pen recharging, or different light intensity due to warping of the vellum. See item (D) below. Eventually I hope to be able to correct for this factor...
- (A,B,C) Contrast between Rt0 (loop of k and ligature of h), Rt1 (top of left leg and bottom of right leg), and Rt3 (the C and bottom of left leg).
- (D) Contrast between Rt2 (top) and Rt3 (bottom) versions of o, which may be due to light intensity variations.
- (E) Anomalous thin strokes of Rt0 Sh retraced by Rt1 with same thin strokes.
- (F) Faint thin end of original Rt0 plume extending beyond end of Rt3 retrace.
- (G,H) Faint thin ends of y tails extending beyond Rt1 retraces of the same.
- (I) Rt1 traces visible under the Rt3 retrace.
- (J) Rt1 or Rt2 traces visible under Rt3 retrace.
- (K) The i strokes were Rt1 and their bottom halves are retraced Rt2.
- (L) The a glyph has left half Rt1,right half Rt2.
- (M) Plume of n retraced in the wrong direction (clockwise), with butt end.
- (N) The body of the n is Rt2; the plume is wholly or partly Rt2, traced in the wrong direction.
- (O) The lower half of the right stroke of the a is Rt0, poking out from under the Rt1 retrace.
- (P) Top of loop of the d is Rt1, rest is Rt2 or Rt3.
- (Q) Ambiguity q/y created bt Rt1.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - Jorge_Stolfi - 30-11-2025
To restate what should be obvious, I am fully convinced by now of my Massive Retracing Theory (MRT): that much of the text and large portions of the figures were retraced, with more or less care, decades or centuries after the original scribing.
And I think that everybody should be aware of that, because many people have drawn very wrong conclusions by assuming that every stroke they see was penned by the Scribe (or, worse, by the Author) when he created BL MS 408. As far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence or argument supporting this alternative to MRT, the Everything's Pristine Theory (EPT).
For example, Lisa is convinced that the painting happened before the text was written, because (according to her blog) she sees the text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. running over the "coffee stain"; which in the multi-spectral images looks exactly like the yellow paint on the flower. She infers that the stain was caused by the Painter himself spilling his paint, while he painted the flower; and I am willing to go with that. But she then must invent an excuse ("vellum was precious") for why the scribe did not avoid the stain when writing the text. And she does not even mention that the stain, being watercolor, could have been cleanly washed off by the Scribe before he wrote the text.
On the other hand, Rene says that on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the green paint was applied over the folio number; and that observation was confirmed with a microscope by him and others. But we know that the folio numbers were written centuries after the original scribing.
So, how can we resolve this significant contradiction?
The MRT provides a neat and logical resolution for it. Namely, the painting did happen centuries after the creation of the VMS, when the book was already bound, with the current folio numbers. The painter spilled his yellow paint over the original text. He then quickly mopped up the spill with a cloth or blotting paper, but did not dare to wash it off because that would also erase the text. Even though he was quick with the mopping, the spilled paint dissolved some of the ink on lines 9-12 and carried it away to the edge of the spill, leaving dark streaks there. Then someone, sometime later, retraced the text that was affected by the spill, over the stain, to enhance it contrast.
(By the way, with this story, the spill shows that the Painter's paint was very runny; more like an ink than a typical watercolor or tempera paint. Which is consistent with much of the "painting" apparently having been done with a broad quill rather than a decent brush.)
All the best, --stolfi
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - oshfdk - 30-11-2025
(30-11-2025, 08:08 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To restate what should be obvious, I am fully convinced by now of my Massive Retracing Theory (MRT): that much of the text and large portions of the figures were retraced, with more or less care, decades or centuries after the original scribing.
And I think that everybody should be aware of that, because many people have drawn very wrong conclusions by assuming that every stroke they see was penned by the Scribe (or, worse, by the Author) when he created BL MS 408. As far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence or argument supporting this alternative to MRT, the Everything's Pristine Theory (EPT).
I'd say the alternative is not EPT, but MIO - Most of the Ink is Original. I haven't seen what I would consider strong evidence of later writing anywhere in the MS, except the folio/quire numbers and maybe some marginalia, but even if there are a handful of places where retracing took place, this won't significantly affect any research into the manuscript, so for practical purposes MIO and EPT are probably the same.
I have never looked into evidence for EPT, because for me this would be a little like trying to prove that there is no well camouflaged live elephant hidden in my living room, perfectly blended in with the furniture. But I can try.
For example, it has been noted (I think I read this in a post by @pfeaster) that on some folios there is what looks like a problem with the quill that caused tiny gaps and slits in the middle of the strokes. Looking at the examples from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. below, I can see that this equally affects dark and light strokes, as if all these strokes were executed with the same quill. This is unlikely to be later damage to the page, because the slits consistently appear in the same parts of the strokes. How does MRT explain this? EPT easily explains this by saying that everything on this folio was executed with the same bad quill.
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - Jorge_Stolfi - 30-11-2025
(30-11-2025, 10:17 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'd say the alternative is not EPT, but MIO - Most of the Ink is Original. I haven't seen what I would consider strong evidence of later writing anywhere in the MS, except the folio/quire numbers and maybe some marginalia, but even if there are a handful of places where retracing took place, this won't significantly affect any research into the manuscript, so for practical purposes MIO and EPT are probably the same.
But what you are describing there is Most Text is Original. And I agree with that. The Retracers generally tried to restore faded parts of the original text, not add anything new. Even the Boobs Retracer limited his "creativity" to the lllustrations, not the text.
Quote:I have never looked into evidence for EPT, because for me this would be a little like trying to prove that there is no well camouflaged live elephant hidden in my living room, perfectly blended in with the furniture.
Indeed. In theory one could prove the EPT by C14-dating every cubic nanometer of ink on some page that is claimed to have "obvious" retracing, like that daiin on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or the crown f72v1. But I don't think that will happen soon enough. Any other ideas?
Quote:For example, it has been noted (I think I read this in a post by @pfeaster) that on some folios there is what looks like a problem with the quill that caused tiny gaps and slits in the middle of the strokes.
Those are perfectly normal features of quill strokes. An essential detail of quill "anatomy" (which is standard even in modern fountain pens) is that the nib is split into two tines that open up slightly when the pen is pressed onto the paper, during the "broad" strokes (like an i or the legs of a gallows). The periodic opening and closing of the tines pulls ink from the "reservoir" up in the hollow of the feather, and regulates its flow. Normally the ink fills the gap between the two tines and thus the quill produces a single stroke. But when the "reservoir" runs out of ink, the gap may run dry, and then one gets two parallel lines, one from each tine.
(This is a "quill" I improvised myself from a bamboo twig. Pretend it is made from a feather instead...)
A good scribe will take care to recharge the quill before that situation happens. Maybe the VMS scribe was not one of the best, or maybe he was tired or working under pressure, or maybe he hated this job...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - oshfdk - 30-11-2025
(30-11-2025, 11:17 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Those are perfectly normal features of quill strokes.
I have some experience preparing quills and writing with quills. I don't think these split strokes normally happen when properly using a good quill with normal quality ink. And generally these split strokes either not happen at all in the Voynich MS, or happen rarely and to a smaller extent. If you believe their extent is normal on this folio, could you find similar examples on the lefthand side page f43v? I can't find any there, certainly not as pronounced as on f44r. So to me it appears that some writing problems happened on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for some reason simultaneously in all shades of ink.
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - oshfdk - 01-12-2025
(30-11-2025, 11:17 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. In theory one could prove the EPT by C14-dating every cubic nanometer of ink on some page that is claimed to have "obvious" retracing, like that daiin on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or the crown f72v1. But I don't think that will happen soon enough. Any other ideas?
Is there enough organic carbon in the ink and is there a way to separate the ink carbon from the vellum carbon? I think I read somewhere that dating the ink is unfeasible even with the most advanced modern tech.
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - Jorge_Stolfi - 01-12-2025
(30-11-2025, 11:55 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think these split strokes normally happen when properly using a good quill with normal quality ink.
It has nothing to do with the quality of the quill or the ink. It happens with any quill or ink when the pen is about to run out of ink. Again, a careful scribe will dip the quill into the inkwell before it gets to that state.
(30-11-2025, 11:55 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you believe their extent is normal on this folio, could you find similar examples on the lefthand side page f43v?
First, on this clip of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (lines 1-4, right margin, mag 2x) I see probably two retracing passes: the general restoration Rt1 (C ) that retraced all the text, and a second retouching pass Rt2 (D) that retraced only a few glyphs here and there. The original Rt0 strokes by now have faded a lot and survive only as the tips of some tails of y and q (A,B).
As for split traces, on this page both Rt1 and Rt2 avoided writing with an almost-dry pen. Still, at 2x magnification you should be able to see that, almost everywhere, the broad strokes have two dark traces, left by the two tines, with a lighter core in between, corresponding to the gap between them (J,K,L,M,N).
All the best, --stolfi
RE: [split] Retracer Thread: darker ink, retracing of text and drawings - Jorge_Stolfi - 01-12-2025
(01-12-2025, 12:24 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is there enough organic carbon in the ink and is there a way to separate the ink carbon from the vellum carbon? I think I read somewhere that dating the ink is unfeasible even with the most advanced modern tech.
I don't think it can be done, either -- yet.
Dried and set iron-gall ink is a 3D polymer of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. molecules held together by iron(III) ions. With maybe other additives like gum arabic. So in theory the ink can be C14 dated. The problem is that, with current technology, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of pure carbon, even with the best technology. And several times that if the sample is a carbon compound. I don't know how much ink there is in one of the VMS glyphs, but I guess it is at least a couple orders of magnitude less than that.
All the best, --stolfi