(09-08-2020, 10:39 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.***
***
***

It was a lengthy explanation in bad English. Thank you for reading with patience.

(09-08-2020, 11:41 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Whether this is one way or another does not indicate whether the VMS is Turkish or not. But written instances of both AYAK and SAK are older than VMS for sure. This is the first example I seen that with these two words being used side by side as an adjective. 

So if we found the first example of something, this is good for linguistic record.

(08-08-2020, 05:09 PM)Alin_J Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(07-08-2020, 12:00 AM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(04-08-2020, 12:05 AM)Pepper Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Ahmet, nice to see you here and thanks for answering questions. What is your translation of the vord daiin? 

Hi Pepper,

You asked an explanation about a short word with using a short sentence. However, the answer is not short. Because this word is used in many different meanings as both a word suffix and an independent word. For this reason, this word is used very often in VMS and this is a very normal situation.

We can write this word in Latin abc in the form SAĞN / ŞAĞN / SEĞN, SAM / ŞAM / SEM / ŞEM, ŞAIIN / SAIIN / ŞEĞN / ŞEİİN according to ATA alphabet transcription. 

I am not saying that the author was referring to all of these words by writing with this single word. There's absolutely nothing like that. Only this word has a Turkish equivalent of all different transcription combinations and some of their meanings are also common. Because the word root is the same. So, that as the word is read in context, the human brain (for a native speaker) automatically derives all variations, and selects the appropriate one for the context. An example of the brain automatically selecting the appropriate concept to the context in English would be the presentation of the word “fly.” Depending on the context in which it is being read, the brain will draw a distinction between “fly” the verb and “fly” the noun. A similar situation exists in Turkish, albeit with more options. If this is confusing, you can read the explanation below and see that all of them in Turkish.

I hope you will understand my English in first read.

The spelling of this word as SAIIN and as like SAĞN are so close to each other with in phonetic-value that they cannot be perceived as different words. The root of this word is the SA- ('SAĞ-' in some dialects), and it has the suffix '-ĞN'.

The suffix “-ĞN” (“-AĞN”/“-ĞIN”/ “-GİN”) is the phonetic equivalent of “-AĞIN / -EĞİN” due to the Turkish vowel harmony rule, for when the last letter of a root is a consonant, a vowel may be placed as a conjunction between the root and the suffix. These suffixes indicate prospect attainability, potentially achieving something, to be able to potentially attain/reach something, and expecting forthcoming form of something (-able). Sir Gerard Clauson in his book "Studies in Turkic and Mongolic Linguistics" (page 154) explained the suffixes “ĞIN”, and “GİN” as: ["-ğın/-gin function uncertain; e.g. kev- "to masticate" > kevgin "indigestible"; rare and unproductive and probably very old."]. In addition, Sir Gerard Clauson explained in his book "An etymological dictionary of pre-Thirteenth-Century Turkish" (Clauson) that: ["-ğ the commonest Deverbal Suffix; forms a wide range of Deverbal Nouns and Noun/Adjectives, Nomen actiones, etc".]

You can see this word in some Turkish dictionaries (with certain meanings) in the form SAĞIN. But you can often see this word in dictionaries with the word-suffix '-mek / -mak'. So you can see this word in the dictionaries as like SAĞINMAK and SAĞMAK too.

The suffixes “-mek/-mak”: these are suffixes of Turkish infinitive. They turn the root word into a verb as well as also a concrete noun.(Clauson, Eyuboğlu, Guise)

SAĞINMAK: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
SAĞMAK: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(See Turkish equivalents in the dictionary in google word translator.)

In addition, the various meaning of the word SAĞIN itself is shown in some dictionaries.
SAĞIN: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You could say that essentially, the letter A and E correspond to ATA Transcription with a single typeface. So we can read this word as SEĞİN.
However, the word SEĞİN is a Turkish word too.
SEĞİN: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

If you read the word in SEM format, it also has Turkish meanings.
SEM: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

If we talk about reading this word as SAM, we can say the following. This word is both a word-suffix and a word that has its own meaning.

The word SAM: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The suffixe -SAM: The suffix “-SAM” indicates actions taken in first person. This suffix is directly described as “I/me” and is related to the suffixes “-SAM”, “-SIM”, “-SİM” or “-SEM” which all describe action’s owner to be “I, me, myself” (first person) (Guise).

In Turkish, some word-suffixes can be written separated from the main word/root since ancient times.

Likewise, the pronunciation of word SEM also has Turkish meanings. For example, we know that this word is used in the meaning of 'medicine' in Old Turkish. But the word SEM also has other meanings too. 
SEM: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The pronunciation of this word as ŞAM and as like ŞEM has some meanings in Turkish.
ŞAM: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ŞEM: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

If we talk about the spelling of the word ŞAĞIN;
Today, this word is written and read in the Anatolian dialects in the form of UŞAĞIN. In other words, the word has a U sound on the front side. We know that some dialects in Azerbaijan are still used in the form of ŞAĞIN in the same meaning.

In this spelling, the root word is the word UŞAK. But when it was take the word suffix -ĞIN, the K sound was lost in pronunciation and the word became as USAĞIN.
UŞAK: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

If we read the word as ŞEĞN, this lives in our language in the form of ŞEYİN. The root of this word is ŞEY. It usually appears in the root form in dictionaries.
ŞEY: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
ŞEYİN: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

As you can see, we have shown all the different readings of this word read in VMS according to ATA transcription. Moreover, we shared all related Turkish dictionary pages.

You may have noticed that this word is repeated in almost every page, with multiple numbers in VMS. Moreover, just like in modern Turkish, this word appears in VMS as both an independent word and as a word suffix. So, in this point, the overlap between Turkish and VMS is very clear. All I can tell you is that the word is not used in the same meaning, or in the same function with all of these repetitions in VMS.

So that's why there are many repetitions.

In the runic alphabet inscriptions from the Old Turkish Period, cases where two or more sounds were met with a single alphabet sign were recorded. So this is not just for VMS-specific too.

However, this type of alphabet has helped the author to encode confidential information. We talked about how this coding is done in our second youtube video in English.   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

May be it is very difficult to understand this situation for a person who thinks English (or any other PIE rooted language) in his/her brain, but an example, even if a word has 10 readings and 100 different meanings, someone who knows Turkish will understand the meaning of the word when they read a sentence. In addition, Turkish speaking person will always understand whether it was used as a word-suffixe or as a separate word too.

So, This is suffix and word. Different readings of the word mostly from same root and a native speaker brain automatically selecting the appropriate concept or meaning form the meaning content. 

The author could write this word in a more separable form by using with simple alphabet characters only, if she/he were wanted to that.

If the author were wanted to that, she/he was not match some single sign in the alphabet with 2 sounds. So this type of writing is not very normal. However, the aim of the author was to create a coded MS which should have been not easy to read. The author was coding and developed a complex alphabet to make this MS difficult to read.

In other words, this alphabet is the situation specific alphabet to created only for VMS, which has been created with consisting of both the syllabic alphabet, the simple alphabet and the tamga-scripts and the numbers. For this reason, now we are reading a simple word in very different ways.

The interesting thing is that even when we take the meanings of different words, the meaning integrity of the sentences is often not broken in meaning. I think this is a situation that created by the intelligence of the author, but it cannot be a coincidence. It is probably not possible to simulate this situation in a language other than Turkish.

Best regards,

Ahmet Ardıç
ATA Team Alberta

Hello Ahmet,

I believe that in your answer you are attempting to provide us with ample explanations to why this particular separate glyph sequence is found very frequently in the VMS (in fact it is the most frequent qlyph sequence), if I'm not being too much mistaken? However, you didn't really answer the question asked. In your links that you have provided no actual translations of the words can be found since everything is written in Turkish, so you have to have knowledge of Turkish to understand the web-pages. Therefore I would here like to re-formulate the original question:

What would be your translation of the - or one of the - most commonly found example(s) of this word/word-suffix in Turkish/Old Turkish languages, into English? 

I am not relying on Google translate, I would like an answer from someone who speaks Turkish. Thank you.

(10-08-2020, 12:55 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(08-08-2020, 03:18 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
As I tried to explain before, I have some difficulties in translating from Old Turkish to modern English. First of all, English is not my native language. And, we could not identify that old dialect yet. Therefore, I have to either translate the meaning into English, or talk about them by translating 1/1 words. 

When I only translate the meaning a sentence, someone who does not speak Turkish may not be able to reconcile them with what the VMS author wrote. When I translate 1/1 (word by word), the sentences may not look like a complete sentence. In other words, they look like unreasonably lined words.

...

In situations like this, it is a good idea to do it both ways...

Create three columns. One is the original VMS passage, the next is the literal translation, the third is the common way of saying it.

Many Bible and Qur'an concordances are designed this way. The literal translation allows a person to see exactly which words were transliterated while the third column provides a more understandable meaning.

This is also the most honest way of doing it because there are no "invisible" steps between the original text and the common interpretation. It makes the methodology more clear, which is always appreciated by those following a scientific method.


Many Voynich researchers know more than one language, so we understand how grammar can be different in another language and how some things are understood by culture. Anyone who has learned a far eastern language (e.g., Japanese or Chinese) understands that text can be very nuanced and local people know how to read meaning into sentences that seem incomplete to someone from outside the culture.

(10-08-2020, 09:27 AM)Alin_J Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(09-08-2020, 10:39 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.***
***
***

It was a lengthy explanation in bad English. Thank you for reading with patience.

It certainly was, and only a fraction seemed to contain any clues malleable to an answer to the actual question I wanted an answer to. No disrespect, but why is it so hard to answer questions briefly and to the point? Contrary to what you wrote in the beginning of your answer I was actually not requesting additional information, merely the answer to the specific question I wrote.

Please understand that we (I mean the people presumably interested in your theories) are not children, and we have only a little time to devote on the myriad of VMS related theories and discussions in this world. Please also understand that when someone asks a simple question in few words, that means that the questioner is probably expecting an answer written in the very same manner, briefly and simple put. Then, maybe if additional information is needed to understand some details, would it be too much to ask that you please summarize them to much shorter in length, as well as to not include any irrelevant information which takes long time to sort out from the relevant information? The probability is otherwise high that much information is lost in the reading/parsing process, or that the train of thought is lost. As I wrote, I mean no disrespect, but in all honesty I think it is actually quite disrespectful of you to communicate in this sort of way, expecting that the listener has all the time in the world to listen to every little detail of your theories and thoughts right away, when actually one is only in the beginning examining/evaluating stage.

Ok, so back to the actual question... 
You actually did provide a few translations of the separate word-incidents of words possibly related to daiin which I can understand:
SAM: straw, grass/sap, candle, wax, solid-parafin, SEM: medicine, candle, wax, beeswax, silver, SAGIN: milking, lactating, milch, complete, SAGIM: milking. 

However, when you give examples as frequently occurring suffixes, you once again did not give any translations into English. I don't understand the cyrillic alphabet either. Would it not be possible to at least translate the most common word+suffixes?

Thanks, and Best Regards.

(08-08-2020, 06:49 PM)Pepper Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(08-08-2020, 04:06 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]In brief, "The Baby pomegranate bag wax" (is not phrase or is not sentence too, but it is an adjective.[/font]

Thanks.

Thank you for the additional explanation, especially taking all this time to respond to us in English.

Is "the baby pomegranate bag wax" a typical adjective in Turkish or Old Turkish?

(10-08-2020, 01:31 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not understand why are you reading my long articles/comments if you think those are useless or long that while there are many different articles on this web page. I also want you to know that I consider your comment as disrespectful.

(10-08-2020, 01:31 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not think that you are in a position to decide what and how much information should be given, since you do not have information about Turkish. 

(10-08-2020, 01:58 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(08-08-2020, 06:49 PM)Pepper Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(08-08-2020, 04:06 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]In brief, "The Baby pomegranate bag wax" (is not phrase or is not sentence too, but it is an adjective.[/font]

Thanks.

Thank you for the additional explanation, especially taking all this time to respond to us in English.

Is "the baby pomegranate bag wax" a typical adjective in Turkish or Old Turkish?

Yes, there are various adjectives which same like structurally similar with this VMS adjective.
You can find basic information in this link below.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This page gives limited information about Anatolian Turkish. But I think that you will have some idea.
Thanks,