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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Jorge_Stolfi - 24-04-2026
(23-04-2026, 10:33 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Regarding the Voynich texts, Alan Turing (surely one of the most quaified persons in deciphering) was asked and it seems like he either rejected the possibility of deciphering VMS at all or rejected just the idea of him trying it. This may be a result of VMS's circumstances or only a personal disposition of Turing himself, who was known to be more than excentric.
I don't know details about Panofsky, but the classic Science completely failed yet with all tries to solve this mystery.
Panofsky gave, obviously, also just some not-satisfying answers.
But You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Turing's colleague at Bletchley Park, did take the challenge, like with Milton Friedman at the NSA; and IIUC he passed the "virus" on to Mary D'Imperio in the 1970s.
When I gave a talk on the VMS at my university, sometime in the 1990s, Bill Tutte -- another Bletchley Park "graduate" (by then a graph theorist at the U of Waterloo, CA) was visiting us and happened to be in the audience. He corrected my spelling of Tiltman's name, blush. (But how could someone be called "Tiltman"? Only in Britain...)
Reminds me of this joke that my advisor told me, before my first presentation at an international conference:
Joe was a timid and totally unremarkable man who lived a boring but perfectly
correct life, without a single sin or ill deed. So, when he passed away, he went
straight to Heaven. There, to his surprise and embarrassment , he was met
by a cheering crowd, and Saint Peter in person greeted him profusely with hugs
and long handshakes.
-- Why all this? -- asked Joe -- I did not do anything remarkable or heroic...
-- Well, you see -- explained Peter -- nowadays we get very, very few new
people here. So, when one arrives, we must throw a great celebration.
-- Oh yes?
-- Yes; and, by the way, tonight we are going to have a dinner in your honor.
You will be asked to give a speech, so be prepared for that.
-- A speech? Me? But... but... I have never given a speech, and don't even
know what I could say...
-- Don't worry -- said Peter. -- Just tell us something interesting that happened
to you down there. Everybody is your friend here, they will applaud anything
you say.
-- But... I can't recall a single interesting thing. My life has been just boring
routine...
-- Come on, think hard. Anything will do.
-- Well... The most extraordinary thing I can think of is one day when I was a
little kid there was a heavy rain, our house was flooded, and we had to climb
onto the kitchen table. Do you think it will do?
-- Well... Yeah, it will do. But I must warn you: Noah will be in the audience.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: No text, but a visual code - oeesordy - 24-04-2026
(21-04-2026, 10:22 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(21-04-2026, 07:30 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..] as you will have seen in the Voynich, the moon is depicted with feminine features. [..]
Frankly, when talking about symbolism, I cannot help but to show those symbols here, this is a quick combination of all (hardly to doubt) symbols for sun and moon, with humanized faces I remembered:
"Suns" seem to have a more feminine appearance, while "moons" look quite like guys. At best, some "suns" look at bit butch, but never clearly male. Of course, a question of interpretation, as always.
When you assign male and female symbolism to sun and moon:
why do the few known and not-argued symbols for sun and moon appear like quite the opposite?
Seems more like "la sol" and "el luno" to me (without doing too much harm to your language).
A better entrance and approach to VMS would be to regard this quite obvious "understanding" of a female sun and a male moon
and to consider those cultures which tend to make that kind of "little difference" by standard.
![[Image: 34b0587e6adc61184458f61801b616ce.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/1200x/34/b0/58/34b0587e6adc61184458f61801b616ce.jpg)
REASON Wilfred was a misogynist he believe woman wanted to shine like stars and dulled the men. The MS-408 has some imagery of misogyny with sagittarius and one being tied up.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 24-04-2026
After Stolfi and ooesordy's personal outbursts and Stefan's disdain for Panofsky, I return to what should matter in this forum: the Voinich investigation.
According to what I read on ReneZ's website, in response to a question from Friedman about what the codex was about, Panofsky replied as follows: So far as can be made out before the manuscript has been decoded, its content would comprise: first, a general cosmological philosophy explaining the medical properties of terrestrial objects, particularly plants, by celestial influences transmitted by astral radiation and those "spirits" which were frequently believed to transmit the occult powers of the stars to the earth; second, a kind of herbal describing the individual plants used for medical and, conceivably, magical purposes; third, a description of such compounds as may be produced by combining individual plants in various ways.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 24-04-2026
(24-04-2026, 03:50 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
Reminds me of this joke that my advisor told me, [..]
As a German, I don‘t get this one, but I have one for you,
an „Interview joke“:
Q: What do you think about when seeing the Swiss flag?“
A: „About sex!“
Q: „How‘s that?“
A: „Because I am always thinking about sex!“
I am reminded of this joke quite a lot when I read several theory owners here promoting their ideas…
"Antonio Garcia Jiménez“ Wrote:Stefan's disdain for Panofsky
I don‘t disdain Panofsky.
I doubt the relevance, depth and scientific proof of his words about VMS.
We had accepted scientists who „identified“ sunflowers out of their expertise, profound knowledge or just authority. Others came up with Andromeda nebula or such things. Wasn‘t good for them, wasn‘t good for science, and wasn‘t good for VMS research.
@Antonio Garcia Jiménez, you cite Panofsky with some words about magical plants and their combinations, but: did he ever doubtlessly identify even some few of these plants at least?
As said: I doubt him, regarding the Voynich MS.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 25-04-2026
Academics can certainly make mistakes, but when someone has dedicated many years of their life to a specific field of knowledge, that person is a reliable source. In interpreting images from the past, I have learned a great deal from people like Aby Warburg and Erwin Panofsky. The latter taught how art and images in general illuminate the ideas of any historical moment.
Stefan, I see that your main contribution to this forum is identifying the Rosettes with a geographical map of a region, specifically Crimea. To do this, you even provide real images taken from Google Maps. I'm not going to argue about that because it's pointless. You're just as convinced of it as I am that the Rosettes are a representation of the medieval cosmos.
I won't repeat my thoughts on Rosettes here. Anyone interested can read about them in posts 1662, 1663, and 1673.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 28-04-2026
Any student of art history (and there don't seem to be many here) is familiar with Panofsky's method of the three levels of interpretation of artistic images: pre-iconographic, iconographic and iconological. Each of them involves a deeper exploration to clarify what we see.
Leaving aside the iconological aspect, which would be the cultural study of the period, we can apply the Panofsky method to the zodiacal section of the Voynich.The first level, pre-iconographic, would be a careful description of what we see; for example, and in a schematic way, we see women each holding a star in each of the circles of the zodiac.
If we move on to the second level, the iconographic one, we enter fully into the field of symbols and allegories, which requires a certain knowledge on the part of the interpreter. What I do then is compare those figures with others from the same period and geographical area. And what I learn is that the human figures served to represent ideas or objects, which in this way came to life.
A contemporary example is a well-known miniature from Christine de Pisan's La cité des dames. In that image, next to the author, Christine, I see three crowned women, each carrying an object. They are allegorical figures, and each object represents a virtue: reason, rectitude, and justice. In other words, women only serve to give life to the objects they carry and that represent virtues. It is the same iconographic procedure as the female zodiacal figures of the Voynich, who hold a star to which they give life, which signifies a representation of astral influence.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 02-05-2026
Images speak, conveying ideas to those who know how to interpret them. There's no need to wait for the Voynich script to be deciphered (if it ever is) to shed light on this codex.
Some images are difficult to decipher, but knowing what others say is more a matter of common sense. It is springtime (northern hemisphere), the time when most plants bloom. In the Voynich, almost all the herbs we see have flowers. It doesn't matter whether they are real or imagined. The fact is that the authors painted them in bloom.
If we see that the zodiacal section begins in Pisces (March), something rare to see, it is because it is a clear indication of the time when nature begins to revive after winter. And the strongest evidence that this relationship exists between these two sections of the Voynich (herbal and zodiacal) is that the peak spring months, corresponding to the signs of Aries and Taurus, are duplicated. The authors wanted to highlight the importance of these signs in the flourishing. I can't think of any other plausible explanation.
There are other clear indications that all parts of the Voynich manuscript are related. Therefore, arguing that this codex is a kind of encyclopedia of unrelated topics is a major mistake.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 05-05-2026
The fact that Pisces, Aries, and Taurus are related to the flowering of plants, as I stated before, is reinforced by the fact that these are the signs in which we see female figures in tubes. The tubes indicate the exit, the channeling, of astral influence.
Interestingly, in Pisces we see how the figures in the inner circle have emerged from the tubes, while those in the outer circle are still inside, waiting. This is the iconographic way the authors allude to a progressive process. Similarly, in Aries and Taurus we see clothed figures alternating with nude ones. This is another way of expressing that there is an order of priority in the departure. Finally, in Gemini we can still see three figures emerging from tubes, a graphic way of alluding to the end of the flowering.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 10-05-2026
Interpreting what we see in Quire 13 is extraordinarily difficult, as we all know. Certainly, if we only had those pages, there would be no way of knowing what they mean. Fortunately, we have a context to relate the images of Quire 13 to. Anyone who has followed my recent posts and my reasoning about the female figures in the zodiac section will be in a better position to understand this jumble.
If before we saw the female figures in their tubes just before their departure, now in Quire 13 we see them in those same tubes already in their journey. All of this is nothing more than a metaphor for the development of astral influence, for how it is channeled. It is a similar process to the one we see in that sun of Taccola, whose rays are channeled through tubes.
On folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we see best the metaphor of the journey, with the female figures descending as if on a slide. The place from which they descend will not pose any difficulty for interpretation for many members of this forum. It is the roof of a tent with those undulating lines that represent the ceiling of the medieval universe, the sphere of the fixed stars.
It's easy to mistake some scenes in Quire 13 for women bathing in pools, but it's just an illusion. We see that, but it means something else. On page f75v, in the image above, we see how, from that same tent ceiling, a fluid connects to the head of each of the female figures. It would be absurd to think that they are real women placed there on purpose so that a trickle of water falls on them. They, the female figures, are the fluid. The fluid has become them, a human representation of the influence of the stars.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 13-05-2026
If we look closely at Quire 13 it is easy to notice that, except for the pages where the female figures are inside tubes, on the rest of the pages, or on a majority of them, the figures appear to be in motion. We see it in f78r, f78v, f81r, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f84r.
In f78v, nine female figures march in order, one behind the other, even placing their hands on the shoulder of the figure in front of them. In f81r, the figures march in the two pools on the page, and in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. they form two rows in the same pool. It's hard to imagine these women taking a pleasure bath or playing around. It seems more like they're following a plan.
In f84r, in the middle pool, the female figures march in the same direction, and, curiously, two of them are looking in opposite directions because they are turning around to follow the line. The first in line crouches down in front of the mouth of a pipe, as if she wanted to go inside. And that is what the authors want to convey: that they are the fluid that flows through the pipes.
This idea is best expressed graphically in f78r. In the upper pool, the female figures have fallen from the tubes of the structures representing the sphere of fixed stars. Three of them are lying almost on top of each other due to the fall. In the lower pool, they regain their walking position.
All of this may seem childish, but it is the way in which the most abstract ideas were expressed in medieval times.