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+--- Thread: [Book] Voynich decoded completely (/thread-2416.html)
RE: Voynich decoded completely - Hallfiry - 28-05-2019
Dr. Hoffmann wrote on youtube:
Quote:Vor etwa einem Jahr habe ich die Dekodierungstabelle auf dem Forum von Voynich Ninja veröffentlicht. Herr Cheshire hat daraus 8 Symbole in der Übersetzung verwendet.
Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob das wissenschaftlich korrekt so ist.
Quote:About a year ago I published a decoding table on the Voynich Ninja forum. Mr. Cheshire used 8 symbols from it for his translation."Correct" in the sense of morally correct, I assume.
I'm not sure if that's scientiffically correct.
I'm sure Hoffmann will expand on that further and show a few more examples where his interpretation matches Cheshire's. However one should consider that two people are interpreting the same same cryptic text with the same painted pictures around it. Overlaps are hard to avoid here. So unless something's really obscure about the coincidences, I wouldn't take it too seriously in regards to plagiarism.
RE: Voynich decoded completely - -JKP- - 28-05-2019
Eight similar symbols means nothing.
Maybe it was plagiarized, maybe it wasn't, but if you consider that "a" looks like a vowel, "o" looks like a vowel, "r" looks like an "r" and several other letters look like Latin letters, anyone who does translations based on something similar to the Latin shape-mates is going to overlap in terms of their transliteration.
Personally, I don't think it matters in this case. I don't believe either Hoffman's or Cheshire's interpretations have any validity. Neither one is grammatical, and both require a very high degree of interpretation. They are "one-person" subjective solutions. They can't be replicated by other people.
RE: Voynich page 65 - voynichbombe - 31-05-2019
that's the most rubbish meaningless german I ever read. try You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
"Fischen du barbara ob fremder breiten. Neu dann zehn dort nur. Ansehen lie gesehen lustige wachsam sag dritten lebhaft mit. Am hellroten ertastete du er so vorbeugte abstellte. Sie aus hell dich leer aber. Worden fremde stille gewann ans aus sohlen dem gesagt. Die ten achthausen uberwunden die gab leuchtturm wohlgefuhl. Her unruhig sonntag wachter dem madchen. Enden sogar was denen wir danke empor.
Geblieben senkrecht zu ja spurenden unterwegs unbemerkt zerfasert er. Einfand man der hab traurig wahrend neu. Achthausen wie scherzwort ten ein gesprachig alt bodenlosen. Besuch um sachte pa stelle je. Ernst boden lauft so kuche ferne stand ei. Ebenso stille nun andrer halten zur weg kammer. Eifrig verlor in mu im burger. Heran en neues wu es sunde drauf. Eck weibern wie aus glatter fenster bin bildnis.
Dame sich zur bis zwei und vier nest ans. Ja meinen neckte knarre so diesen vorbei teller. En bundel zu neckte ri dreien seinen fragte he. Keinem langer se jawohl so gehabt. Bi kleines schwach an brachte um so sammelt umwolkt meisten. Landsleute hereintrat achthausen er um em vergnugter hausdacher an auskleiden. Verstehen da spazieren in la zuschauer.
Erstaunt zog reinlich eck jahrlich der. Oha pfiff hob wills durch her funfe loben. Mageren hab zwingen jungfer anblick nie ihn. Nun pfeifen scheint regnete eigenes sei wahrend hol gemacht. Ins her zufrieden mitkommen muhlenrad zuschauer holzspane ein. Er burschen geholfen zu ja feinheit vornamen streckte trillern.
Dahin gutes ob an ja riefe woher wovon. Hinabsah ein bei neu tor trostlos wirklich lampchen. Ei vorwarts brauchen wo freundes spielend la. Das gab bis euren feuer jeder enden kenne. Zwei sohn wies erst floh um kein du. Verwirrt eigentum kindbett zu in sorgfalt nebenaus sa. Es es kenne ab ihnen kaute in. Hausherr erschrak ja gegessen um ja um ehrbaren.
Horte wills mager la komme an gehen ja. Herein ja gebaut wieder zu ri du. Schlafet ich tal mehrmals allerlei mir einander zur. Zu schones barbele he la er konnten. Offnung dus tur gesehen fur auf unrecht. Alt spurenden angerufen rausperte bis. Gehe kund tale es ja. Kennen tat ans braten die was machte. Viehmarkt senkrecht zu geblendet schlanken um unendlich.
Notig lernt dahin das wuste vor holen enden was. Niemand spiegel fu wo heiland ob du niedere. Ins verstand behutsam auf der trostlos bezahlen. Hinstellte ungerechte mi ob lehrlingen wohnzimmer besonderes marktplatz. Flo wachsamen eia ernsthaft ich schlanken plaudernd gestrigen ten. Ob kronen em wo mensch merken baumen wu. Ist gib bugeleisen bodenlosen achthausen tat. Guter ihnen es so ihrem neben. Ers stockwerk nachgehen leuchtete bekummert hin man.
Fluchtigen pa so launischen besonderes pa handarbeit in ordentlich. Ku wert da wenn neue paar zwei weit. Brauerei entgegen die mir jahrlich ruh vor. Sorglosen dus ruh ihn muhlenrad ehe schwarzes duftenden schneider. Bat hei neidgefuhl nun der getunchten verbergend ordentlich gerbersteg arbeitsame. Sah sehen hab ruh gro dahin boden. Ton bugeleisen was hat schuchtern marktplatz geschlafen sonderling. Spielte fremden horchte gesicht du lockere se.
Lieb mu hast ja wege. Abendsuppe drechslers gerbersteg ihr gab gro eck. Je so he herd heut feld. Pa je messingnen nettigkeit gesprachig grashalden sa ja bangigkeit geschwatzt. Ein hin schreibet hellroten kam verwegene unbemerkt meisterin. Fu betrubte mitreden gebrauch sorgfalt sprechen er allerlei. Lagen stieg se zu stuck so um kiste. Naturlich hol gegriffen blo neugierde anzeichen. Mann hast oden fast so ja erde bist.
Zitterte vor brauerei gelandes tut neustadt. Vormittags neidgefuhl verrichtet vorpfeifen ubelnehmen mu wo du nachtessen wo. Als nur betrubte zog vorstadt gewartet sag. Tief ja la wird gewu fing mi fein gern. Augenblick du werkstatte ku grasgarten ungerechte se. Wo vogelnest filzhutes dunkelrot gepfiffen anzeichen fu im ja. Grasgarten lehrlingen sauberlich so ri schuttelte dazwischen gesprachig. Angenehm erschien blattern gerechte erzahlen im la gegangen. Mitkommen lag schranken viehmarkt wei zierliche ist lie handwerke nachgehen. Karte wo funfe so alles."
danke für die aufmerksamkeit.
(13-01-2019, 02:23 PM)Dr. Michael Hoffmann Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Voynich page 65 provides some evidence for the timeframe, when at least this page must have been written.
The herb depicted is somehow new to the people, thus it has to been tested, whether the powder is authentic: 1) the powder is shiny 2) you get a runny nose 3) the powder has a stench smell 4) it is an aphrodisiac.
And, which herb is it? Exactly, as seen on the page, it is a pumpkin, which was carried to europe some time after the year 1492.
Think about dog latin, or comparable forms of latin, in case you want to translate. al=alere, ur=urere, rad=radere, lin=linere.
A funny joke is on that page. You can see two faces down there at the end of the roots. Guess what? If you decode line one of that page, you will come up with: " 1 Cur met ur natu nite ea ne rEMane nerva onera da fa os merace ai nero ve amen nexus"
Nerva and Nero were two roman emperor. At least Nero suffered from something (described by Celsus) that could have been treated with pumpkin powder, if pumpkin would have existed in europe in that time.
Line 2 is nice. It ends with "tace tacet", which is a known musical term.
Currently I am working on page 78. It is about a way to calculate ("rechnen mit linien", calculate with lines), which is far better than using fingers. I would like to present it here, next time.
Thanks,
Michael
Latin:
1 Cur met ur natu nite ea ne rem an rere fa o ne rad afa os merace ai ne nove amen meum
2 re que a in erad alet ea iRe naRe o mera daRe o mera cata o nata da que tace tacet meta
3 o axum ere a iRe rad a lin eru ni mere ea ne o ea i ea neu usa daRe aer a mere a ili in rere Ret a
4 ceu use a ili erat eo axum deum al eum ne te a i i mere ali ire fet eum d
5 te extat eu usa CeU usa o latex usa Reo ac eo ea ne o uni Reo ad al et acet a
6 er Ci i eru nam reRe a in rem re ea i Ret a lex usa Reum neu usa Reo
7 ne te a a deum at eum a i i lex usa lex se tali i ire
German:
1 Weil ernte, trockne aus, mit dem Alter glänze dieses wirklich, die Tatsache doch wohl glauben, verkünde. Ja schabe mit dem Staub, das Aussehen ziemlich echt ach! wirklich neuartig es sei, besonders 2 denke! und zufolge nach streiche es wird hervorbringen dieses fließen der Nase. Echt nennen. Echt wissend. Entstehend nenne oder schweige, es schweigt das Ende 3 . Der Himmel Herr! Nach fließen schabe durch bestreiche, ermittle wenn nicht echt dieses wirklich. Dort eins dieses noch zeigend, bestimmen der Geruch zufolge echt, in die Scham hinein glauben, er denkt an 4 gleichwie benutzend an die Scham es war solange der Himmel den Gott halte er damit nicht dir durch zwei echt verändert fließen, er verkünde derselbe Tag 5 dir es steht hervor gut zeigend, gleichwie beweisend. Die Flüssigkeit nutzend ich glaube übrigens solange dieses nicht. Allein ich denke für hervorbringen nämlich säuerlich 6 der Geruch provoziere eins befreie denn glauben zufolge während die sache wieder dieses eins er denkt um die Bedingung beweisend haftbar, noch zeigend ich glaube 7 tatsächlich dir um für zufolge er aber dasjenige zwei beweisend die Beschaffenheit zeigend die Art und Weise ohne derartig eins fließen
Englisch:
1 Harvest, dry, with age that shines really, this fact you have to believe, announce. Yes, scratch with the dust (powder), it looks rather genuine oh! actually, it is somehow novel, now think in particular 2 and because after expiring it will spawn a runny nose. Name true. Know true. Rising name or be silent, it is silent the end 3. The Skies Lord! After runny, scratch and coat, really determine if not true this is. There one this will show, determine the smell as real, it reminds of pubic area he thinks 4, however just as use it exactly there he was whilst the skies hold god he so that you not true two changed flow, he announce on the same day 5, it protrudes very well of you, just as proving. The liquid use i believe besides whilst this not. Alone I think for spawning particularly sour the smell provoking liable, in addition showing to believe actually you for he but that two demonstrate the quality shows the manner without suchlike one runny
RE: Voynich decoded completely - dfs346 - 06-12-2023
If the forum will permit me to paraphrase a post that I have made on another thread: in response to any proposal that the Voynich manuscript is written in (or derived from) a specified language, the forum should expect the proposer to match, however approximately, the glyph frequencies with the letter frequencies in that language.
For example (assuming that the text dates from the fifteenth century), if it is proposed that Latin is the precursor language, the proposer should be expected to cite the frequencies of Latin letters as written in the fifteenth century.
I think that the broadest representation of Latin letter frequencies is that in the LatinISE corpus. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The LatinISE corpus has a medieval subcorpus which should represent Latin texts of the fifteenth century, although I have not been able to find the time period to which it refers. Alternatively, we could refer to the letter frequencies in a specific medieval Latin text, for example Dante Alighieri’s Monarchia, written between 1312 and 1313.
The frequencies of the glyphs in the v101 transliteration, in descending order, and the frequencies of the letters in the LatinISE medieval subcorpus, have a correlation of 95.9 percent; the v101 glyph frequencies with the letter frequencies in Monarchia, a correlation of 93.3 percent.
In the context of a proposal to map Voynich glyphs to Latin letters, these tables permit a test of whether the proposed Latin equivalents have comparable frequencies to those of the respective glyphs.
RE: Voynich decoded completely - Mark Knowles - 06-12-2023
(06-12-2023, 07:28 PM)dfs346 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the forum will permit me to paraphrase a post that I have made on another thread: in response to any proposal that the Voynich manuscript is written in (or derived from) a specified language, the forum should expect the proposer to match, however approximately, the glyph frequencies with the letter frequencies in that language.
For example, if it is proposed that Latin is the precursor language, the proposer should be expected to cite the frequencies of Latin letters as written in the fifteenth century.
I think that the broadest representation of Latin letter frequencies is that in the LatinISE corpus. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The LatinISE corpus has a medieval subcorpus which should represent Latin texts of the fifteenth century, although I have not been able to find the time period to which it refers. Alternatively, we could refer to the letter frequencies in a specific medieval Latin text, for example Dante Alighieri’s Monarchia, written between 1312 and 1313.
The frequencies of the glyphs in the v101 transliteration, in descending order, and the frequencies of the letters in the LatinISE medieval subcorpus, have a correlation of 95.9 percent; the v101 glyph frequencies with the letter frequencies in Monarchia, a correlation of 93.3 percent.
In the context of a proposal to map Voynich glyphs to Latin letters, these tables permit a test of whether the proposed Latin equivalents have comparable frequencies to those of the respective glyphs.
I must confess that I haven't read all your comments on the matter, but in your one-to-one mappings you seem to ignore the possibility of a verbose cipher or a filler text amongst other possibilities. In such a case the underlying language could well be Latin.
RE: Voynich decoded completely - Helmut Winkler - 07-12-2023
@ dfs 346
your fundamental mistake, among others, is that you use for your statistics printed texts, while the VMs is a handwritten text whose amount espeially of vowels is quite different from a printed text. Another is that you mix up glyphs and letters
And the VMs IS Latin, what else
RE: Voynich decoded completely - Scarecrow - 07-12-2023
(07-12-2023, 07:51 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And the VMs IS Latin, what else
RE: Voynich decoded completely - Rafal - 07-12-2023
Comparing sign frequences of Voynichese vs natural languages like Latin would work only if Voynichese would be a simple
substitution cipher, sign for a sign.
I believe that we can exclude it once and for all. Do you think that guys like William Friedman or Prescott Currier wouldn't solve it
if it was such simple case?
RE: Voynich decoded completely - Koen G - 07-12-2023
In my opinion, discussing which language Voynichese could be at the current stage makes no sense. No matter how you twist it, statistically it does not behave like any language. It's like debating which fuel to use for your bicycle, or discussing which hair conditioner to use even though you're bald. We need to get a car first, or grow some hair.
Again, depending on which statistic you look at (mostly entropy, I guess), Voynichese is simply too far removed from language altogether. Introducing obscure dialects does not help, since they never improve the relevant statistics to a sufficient degree. If they did, they would probably not function as a language. Introducing different writing systems like abjads tends to worsen the problem, so the solution isn't there either. And assuming abbreviation makes the entropy problem worse, not better. Proclaiming that of course it is Latin does not help anyone either.
If we ever find meaning in Voynichese, the first step will be to discover how it encodes information. How it can encode any information, in any language.
RE: Voynich decoded completely - Aga Tentakulus - 07-12-2023
If language is not the subject of discussion, what is?
About the images? The stem has already been chewed off of this lollipop.
There are 2 languages represented in the VM. One is German and the other is something similar to Latin. It's certainly not Latin, but neither is Ladin or Romansh. Or whatever all the other dialects are called.
A bicycle runs on muscle fat, which is also a kind of oil.
F116 "marix morix" Nespresso may not be Latin. But "n'expresso" is.
It's time to become a little more flexible.