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+--- Thread: Engineering your own voynich (/thread-3592.html)
RE: Engineering your own voynich - pf0072 - 29-11-2025
(11-03-2023, 10:44 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(11-03-2023, 02:37 AM)mja0075 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You need to click solve again on the main window after setting the numbers for the polyphones. (not very intuitive)
I did. It reopens the same "Polyphones" dialog.
Maybe there is something else that needs to be set ?
I would prefer a true polyalphabetic substitution mode with 3 alphabets, polyphones are much more difficult to solve.
For the "Substitution + monoalphabetic groups" the "Solve" button displays:
Error: input dimensions cannot exceed 100 by 100
Note: the big 8-grams file (beijinghouse) was loaded correctly after I re-compressed it with gzip. Thanks for the links.
I know this is old but I was having the same problem. I had to turn my ciphertext into a grid of text, instead of one long string. So the grid of ciphertext has to be less than 100 wide or tall. I don't know why, but it does. And when you hit solve, it'll bring up a grid to put cribs if you want. And then just hit solve again on the main window.
RE: Engineering your own voynich - mja0075 - 10-06-2026
Finally....
Byatan's key has a lot of overlaps and repeats, which is perhaps why it stunted us for so long. We needed to be solving for polyphones too.
However, @nablator your breakdown was very good, and even got the two four character keys.
Method:
His Key:
The plaintext:
Reproduction of Byatan's cipher in python:
RE: Engineering your own voynich - oshfdk - 10-06-2026
(10-06-2026, 01:01 AM)mja0075 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Byatan's key has a lot of overlaps and repeats, which is perhaps why it stunted us for so long. We needed to be solving for polyphones too.
However, @nablator your breakdown was very good, and even got the two four character keys.
Congratulations! How practical is it for reading if used as an actual cipher? Is it always simple to determine the boundaries between the positions?
Could you share some details of how you managed to crack it?
This is also optimistic news for those of us who think they know how the Voynich manuscript was created (be it a specific cipher, exotic language or some other method), but so far can't come up with a solution. Sometimes you just need to keep digging.
RE: Engineering your own voynich - nablator - 10-06-2026
Thank you so much! I wasn't expecting a polyphonic cipher, and I wasn't expecting so many ambiguities in the breakdown, even when "iiu" and "YNh" are removed (no need for "z" as it's not in the plaintext):
Code:
f+ii is also fi+i
f+iii is also fi+ii
f+ia is also fi+a
F+ii is also Fi+i
F+iii is also Fi+ii
F+ia is also Fi+a
q+iii is also qii+i
na+a is also n+aa
na+e is also n+ae
na+i is also n+ai
Ti+ii is also T+iii
Ti+a is also T+ia
Ti+i is also T+ii
Ka+a is also K+aa
Ka+e is also K+ae
Ka+i is also K+ai
fa+a is also f+aa
fa+e is also f+ae
fa+i is also f+ai
Ki+ii is also K+iii
Ki+a is also K+ia
Ki+i is also K+iiRE: Engineering your own voynich - oshfdk - 10-06-2026
(10-06-2026, 09:17 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you so much! I wasn't expecting a polyphonic cipher, and I wasn't expecting so many ambiguities in the breakdown, even when "iiu" and "YNh" are removed (no need for "z" as it's not in the plaintext):
Congrats to you too! I think your effort was also essential for solving this.
So, is this generally just a bad quality cipher that would be a pain to read? Are there many cases when ambiguities both resolve to common plaintext combinations?
RE: Engineering your own voynich - nablator - 10-06-2026
(10-06-2026, 09:23 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, is this generally just a bad quality cipher that would be a pain to read? Are there many cases when ambiguities both resolve to common plaintext combinations?
The ambiguities are all in the first 2 of the 3 positions:
Ti+a is also T+ia so plaintext "te" = "ip"
Ti+i is also T+ii so plaintext "td" = "ig" = "it"
Ka+a is also K+aa so plaintext "se" = "gu" = "gv"
Ka+e is also K+ae so plaintext "si" = "go"
Ka+i is also K+ai so plaintext "sd" = "gn"
fa+a is also f+aa so plaintext "oe" = "du" = "dv"
fa+e is also f+ae so plaintext "oi" = "do"
fa+i is also f+ai so plaintext "od" = "dn"
Ki+ii is also K+iii so plaintext "rg" = "rt" = "gh" = "gx"
Ki+a is also K+ia so plaintext "re" = "gp"
Ki+i is also K+ii so plaintext "rd" = "gg" ="gt"
... and there are many more, not sure why my program missed them:
T+iii is also Ti+ii so plaintext "ih" = "ix" = "tg" = "tt"
Fi+i is also F+ii so plaintext "pd" = "eg" = "et"
f+ia is also fi+a so plaintext "dp" = "ne"
etc.
Some of these combinations occur in Byatan's ciphertext, so the deciphering process is ambiguous and needs a dictionary to resolve multiple possibilities.
RE: Engineering your own voynich - Koen G - 10-06-2026
Nice work! I did not expect this thread to reach such a clean resolution.
The ambiguities seem a bit arbitrary? In the sense that they could probably be avoided with some optimization?
RE: Engineering your own voynich - nablator - 10-06-2026
(10-06-2026, 09:59 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The ambiguities seem a bit arbitrary? In the sense that they could probably be avoided with some optimization?
Yes. I found several possible unambiguous partitions without any empty string in any of the 3 positions (24 - 24 - 23 or 25 - 24 - 22 letters or similar). The ambiguous partitions scored low and were discarded by my program. It didn't work very well actually, I did most of the optimisation manually, using the program for scoring only (i.e. counting the ambiguities and the size of the 3 alphabets that were combined in the score).
RE: Engineering your own voynich - RobGea - 10-06-2026
Congratulations and very well done mja0075
Respect to nablator
RE: Engineering your own voynich - mja0075 - 10-06-2026
(10-06-2026, 06:52 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Congratulations! How practical is it for reading if used as an actual cipher? Is it always simple to determine the boundaries between the positions?
By my count there are (including duplicates):
106 groups with 1 possible decoding
40 groups with 2 possible decodings
62 groups with 3 possible decodings
13 groups with 4 possible decodings
6 groups with 6 possible decodings
6 groups with 9 possible decodings (anything starting with "mm")
Which means, more than half of the "words" in the cipher are not deterministic, and there are 6.98x10^59 different decodes with this key.
However, most of these obviously produce nonsense english, so in reality it's not too bad, but it is slow to try the different word combinations. There's also no spaces encoded.
(10-06-2026, 06:52 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could you share some details of how you managed to crack it?
I had been using nablator's cipher as an example case to try and build faster segmentation that could quickly and reliably find keys that successfully decrypted with AZDecrypt. This never got anywhere with Byatan's though, so I had claude pull AZDecrypt's scoring and decryption logic into the loop.
So basically, instead of segmenting the text, and then trying to solve, redoing segmentation with decryption runs in between.
Some other notes:
(10-06-2026, 04:51 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Respect to nablatorAgreed!