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+--- Thread: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? (/thread-2773.html)
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 17-05-2019
As an example to define an "8" shape we could possibly use an equation like:
y^4 = a^2(y^2-x^2)
^ means to the power of. (Where the letter a is a constant.)
This requires no references to scripts.
I would think many, if not all, Voynichese shapes could be defined in this kind of way.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 17-05-2019
(17-05-2019, 12:28 AM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't have a big problem with understanding this.
You can take images of a bunch of q's and a bunch of 4's and line them up in order from more q - like to more 4 - like.
These images could come from a variety of sources or even be mathematically drawn.
You could mark the point where q's end and 4's begin.
For any given source you could count how many are more q like and how many are more 4 like.
Mark seems to think most are more 4 - like in the VMS.
My guess would be that intermediate forms would dominate.
Also, that cutoff point will be arbitrary.
I imagine that theoretically a mathematical function could be designed to draw the shapes, by adjusting a coefficient of "pointy" and/or a coefficient of "round".
In that sense, the shapes would be independent of a manuscript.
Meaningful results though would only come from comparison of shapes from actual manuscripts to the mathematical ones.
Hi Don,
Yes, I think you have a much clear idea of what I am talking about than some other people have.
Thanks for your input and making some useful, relevant points.
Mark
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 17-05-2019
JKP: You said that
"But that suggestion got no response."
I was in no way objecting to that notion, in fact I have ideas related to that. However I was replying to your others points. There is no point undertaking such a laborious kind of plan unless there is widespread acceptance that that is viable, which now and certainly at that time there did not appear to be. I have endeavoured to respond to most of what you have written, but there seems to be an endless stream of digressions to deal with.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Koen G - 17-05-2019
So why didn't you just ask whether we think EVA-q looks more like a "4" than a "q"?
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 17-05-2019
(17-05-2019, 02:50 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So it's like... we take the number 4 but forget about its meaning and origin until it becomes a meaningless form and then see whether it looks like the VM shape?
Essentially, yes.
Then and only then once we have answered that question we can move to a more general comparison. But first before doing that we have to establish what it looks like visually. My purpose is this thread was around establishing what the gallows character looks like visually.
Only once these have been achieved can we start comparing it with other sources. I am very interested in comparison with other sources if a consensus is arrived at at what it looks like visually, but that comparison itself falls otherside of this thread. I am trying to break the problem up into smaller parts.
My motivation in this subject is similarities between the gallows characters and diplomatic cipher alphabets, however that specific comparison is not the purpose of this thread. I have tried to keep the subject matter of the thread narrow and focussed.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 17-05-2019
(17-05-2019, 11:44 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So why didn't you just ask whether we think EVA-q looks more like a "4" than a "q"?
The question relates to the gallows characters.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 17-05-2019
(17-05-2019, 07:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello Don,
what you write is not wrong. However, the thread title doesn't say:
"The top left hand (etc) is a triangle".
Furthermore, Mark says that the purpose of all this is to be able to find the origin of these shapes. At the same time, we are not allowed to look in documents contemporary to the Voynich MS to find examples and counter-examples.
So, just looking at the Voynich MS, in most t and p characters, the leftmost tip is mostly rounded.
In the q characters, it tends to be a bit more pointed, but is also often rounded.
In principle, I suppose one could measure and compute stats of the slopes of the oblique lines, but I think that should be left to someone who thinks that there is a useful outcome of such a non-trivial exercise.
(Implication: it won't be me).
The end goal is to establish the origin of these shapes, but the intermediate goal and the purpose of this thread is to establish what the actual visual appearance if the shape is. I referred to diplomatic cipher alphabets as this constitutes my personal motivation for this question, however that is not the purpose of the thread; I think we have to avoid getting into a very broad discussion in this thread which could go anywhere.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Koen G - 17-05-2019
So why didn't you just ask whether we think EVA-q the top left loop of the gallows character looks more like "4" than "q"?
To that question - taking the shapes as I type them as reference - I would say that yes, it does look more like "4" because it is bent rather than round. There is not an equal slope to the curve. But the tips do display a great variety of roundedness. On a typical page I find both sharp points close to "4" and rounded points.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 17-05-2019
(17-05-2019, 12:11 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So why didn't you just ask whether we think EVA-q the top left loop of the gallows character looks more like "4" than "q"?
To that question - taking the shapes as I type them as reference - I would say that yes, it does look more like "4" because it is bent rather than round. There is not an equal slope to the curve. But the tips do display a great variety of roundedness. On a typical page I find both sharp points close to "4" and rounded points.
I did ask that question and when asked for clarification in subsequent comments as to what I meant by people I provided it.
I think we are in the area of considering natural human drawing variation i.e. we don't always draw every shape the same way as we don't have perfect control over the quill. Also speed as we are drawing is a factor. I think the question is what shape the author was trying to draw, a triangle as in "4" or a circle as in "q". I imagine when we are drawing fast, angles are more likely to become curves. However we have so very very many examples of this shape in the Voynich that we should be able to come to a firm conclusion. I have obviously pretty clear ideas that we have a "4" shape and ideas about how we could prove it.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Koen G - 17-05-2019
When I see a gallow glyph though, I think the shape of the top loops is often influenced by the fact that it connects to the other loop.
If the gallow is a single glyph, then the shape of the top left part should not be looked at as if it appeared in isolation.