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+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: 116v (/thread-437.html)
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RE: 116v - ReneZ - 17-12-2025
The word peinigen is a transitive verb which requires an object. It is not just 'causes pain'. But that is really a detail.
(Yesterday, 06:19 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, I did not mean that it is a complete sentence with a subject, predicate, and object, but rather a list in the form of alliteration.
The reason I pointed it out is because this is how essentially all "good old"/old-fashioned Voynich text translations worked. A series of (very) loosely related words, which are turned into a sentence by arbtrarily adding words. While that sort of makes sense in the 'decryption' step, it is usually not sensible when one thinks of the 'encryption' step. The missing words should have been there.
That also applies here.
RE: 116v - schimmelchampagne - 17-12-2025
Just chiming in to make another plug for my Old Occitan/Old French-like Romance translation of the first line, which has the advantage of being a full, grammatical sentence.
RE: 116v - JoJo_Jost - 17-12-2025
(Yesterday, 06:40 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The reason I pointed it out is because this is how essentially all "good old"/old-fashioned Voynich text translations worked.
I completely agree with you regarding translations of the VMS, and I am very aware that one must be extremely careful here. I am absolutely not a fan of eisegesis.
However, in the case of a three-word marginal note, I assume a different register: abbreviated, alliterative, and process-oriented.
In such marginal notes or keyword lists, verbs are often elliptical and can function as shorthand for effects (“has the effect of X”) without an explicit object.
With a three-word alliteration, this kind of ellipsis is almost inevitable and entirely typical. (Especially since only a single letter is actually in question and the resulting reading is coherent.) But of course, it's just a theory, too
RE: 116v - Koen G - 17-12-2025
As far as I can tell though, MHG "pine" had a limited application. Something like intense suffering in a religious context? Eschatological suffering
In modern Dutch, "pijn" can be any kind of pain, just like the English word. But German has other words for that.
RE: 116v - JoJo_Jost - 17-12-2025
(Yesterday, 09:10 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As far as I can tell though, MHG "pine" had a limited application. Something like intense suffering in a religious context? Eschatological suffering
No, that ist not correct:
Middle High German Dictionary by Benecke, Müller, Zarncke
pîne swv. ahd. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. pinôn Graff 3, 340.
1. nöthige, zwinge, quäle. dû kanst mich sêre pînen Geo. 35. a. manger sêle die er wolde pînen Servat. 177. gelemt gepînet Ludw. kreuzf. 6312. er dâchte mit den pilgerînen die dît freislîchen pînen Jerosch. Pf. 157. d. di gepînten kristen das. 147. b. den gelouben pînen Pass. K. 344,18.
2. reflexiv, ich pîne mich. Gr. 1,956. bemühe mich, quäle mich ab. ich begunde mich des pînen, daʒ ich etc. Trist. 160. und sô er sichs ie mêre pînete unde nôte Trist. 19347. swem man aller beste sprach, dâ pînten sich die jungen nâch Mai 1,28. daʒ er sich kunde pînen nâch tugenden und nâch êren das. 81,12. vgl. das. 86, 30. die kristen kunden sich pînen nâch êren an dem strîte das. 121,6. nâch êren ir iuch pînet warnung 2637. sô sich der süeʒe jâmer nâch dir pînet myst. 375,20. sô kan er sich ûf hôhe milte pînen MS. 2,207. b. er begunde sich pînen ûf ritterlich geverte Mai 107,10. sîn herze sich doch pînet ûf triuwe und ûf güete Wigal. 2848. sus hæte er sich gepînet ûf tugent Engelh. 240. diu pînde sich vil sêre ûf hôher künste lêre Barl. 258,31. daʒ sich mîn zunge pînet sêre ûf ir lop troj. 20162. mîn vater hât gepînet dar ûf mit hôher koste sich das. 21104.
3. zuweilen hat das wort, auch ohne reflexiv zu sein, die bedeutung: sich um etwas bemühen. swer umme grôʒe gewalt pînet Wernh. v. Elmend. 1157.
[url=https://woerterbuchnetz.de/?sigle=BMZ&lemid=P00559#][/url] pînege swv.
1. peinige (pînegôn?). pungo peinigen Diefenb. gl. 228. infligere peynigen das. 154. affligere peinygen das. 15. afficere punire peynigen ebenda. crucio peinjgen das. 84. cruciatus gepeiniget ebenda. extorquere aus peynigen das. 117. — an kelden und an hitzen gepîneget in der hœhsten klage Theophil. 135. daʒ si den menschen pînegeten ûf der tôdes vart Pass. 70,1. si wurden gepîneget in manigen weg Clos. chron. 31. daʒ wir nâch gevelle dich pînigen in der helle Pass. K. 34,90. er wolde si mit hungersnôt pînigen unde villen das. 36,3. sô man si pîniget unde slêt das. 104,71. daʒ in des kuniges grimmer slac pînigen wolde manigerhant das. 463,27. — daʒ di lieben hailgen gepîngôt solten werden zürch. jahrb. 46,13. —
2. reflexiv. sich abquälen, abmühen. warumbe pînigestu dich sô Dioclet. 2785.
This supports the interpretation of peinigen as a process or effect term, not necessarily a fully spelled-out sentence with an explicit object.
RE: 116v - Bernd - 17-12-2025
I'm certainly no expert on the matter but my feeling is that 'pîne' seems a bit anachronistic (too ancient) compared to the rest of the text. This sounds like 12-13th century, not 15th. I'd rather expect 'peyn' here.
Not saying we should rule it out completely, the VM appears to draw from inspirations that significantly pre-date the 15th century. But it still feels odd.
RE: 116v - JoJo_Jost - 17-12-2025
(Yesterday, 12:59 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'm certainly no expert on the matter but my feeling is that 'pîne' seems a bit anachronistic (too ancient) compared to the rest of the text. This sounds like 12-13th century, not 15th. I'd rather expect 'peyn' here.
Not saying we should rule it out completely, the VM appears to draw from inspirations that significantly pre-date the 15th century. But it still feels odd.
That's not entirely correct; it only began to disappear in the 15th century.
Here are a few sources in various contexts:
Hübner, Buch Daniel 1660 (omd., Hs. 14./A. 15. Jh.): wie die dri kindelin | Bliben vri von vueres pin.
Jahr, H. v. Mügeln 60 (omd., Hs. 1463): der tochter und der ammen din, | die dich gebar an alle pin.
V. Anshelm. Berner Chron. 4, 477, 15 (halem., n. 1529): dass si ein oberkeit der stat Bern zů mite September beschikt, durch pin und kuntschaft erkundet.
Chron. Köln 1, 3867 (rib., Hs. 1. H. 15. Jh.): Syn herschijff quam(en) in me Rine | ind daden den molneren pine.
Koppitz, Trojanerkr. 3522 (Hs. ˹noschweiz., 15. Jh.˺): Flüchtig ward manig sarasin, | Ir wer und och strittlich pin | Waz als in flühen verwantt.
Neumann, Rothe. Keuschh. 4448 (thür., 1. H. 15. Jh.): ein grosse pin | ist dem tuvel, wanne der sunder ist sin | alss her das achtet in solcher masse, | das her muss van ym lasse.
Note: I don't want to defend this thesis so “strongly”; it is just a thesis. But I couldn't leave the previous comments as they were, sorry
RE: 116v - Koen G - 17-12-2025
Again though, you typically wouldn't use "pin" for a toothache. Your examples refer to:
- torment of fire
- someone who gave birth without suffering (not sure if this is in a religious context)
- literal torture of suspects
- distress, trouble...
- struggle of battle
- it causes great distress/torture to the devil when...
Note the prevalence of the forms "pin" or "pine". "Pinen" is grammatical, but rare in comparison.
RE: 116v - JoJo_Jost - 17-12-2025
(10 hours ago)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Again though, you typically wouldn't use "pin" for a toothache. Your examples refer to:
- torment of fire
- someone who gave birth without suffering (not sure if this is in a religious context)
- literal torture of suspects
- distress, trouble...
- struggle of battle
- it causes great distress/torture to the devil when...
Note the prevalence of the forms "pin" or "pine". "Pinen" is grammatical, but rare in comparison.
I don't understand this objection?? I have merely demonstrated that it is not only used in a spiritual sense, but in various contexts and in the 15th century. I don't think I need to do more than that. It is a coherent translation option, it makes some sense, the letters match except for one, and what reasonable words would you expect in a marginal note after the word "Poxleber"
????But okay, here sources:
Full text of "Drei Koelner Schwankbuecher Aus Dem XVten Jahrhundert"
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
„… sind zu faul, zu ‘pinen’; sie trinken lieber einen guten Schluck.“ here, however, as toiling, struggling, tormenting oneself
and Neidhart-Fuchs-Druck (Augsburg, um 1495): „Hie schenckt Neithart wein vnd ließ pinen under die pauren.“