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+--- Thread: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? (/thread-2773.html)
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 16-05-2019
JKP: I was looking at a way of typing how I think it looks that is all. It doesn't look visually more like anything on my standard keyboard than a "p". I was not typing it that for any other reason, but to give an ides of its visual appearance.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 16-05-2019
(16-05-2019, 08:44 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark,
the 8 could be an s as well as a d as well as a an 8. The problem with the Vscript is that it is, unlike a book script, very variable, it is the script of an individual, that is why some people think there were different scribes at work. I think thw way to a soluruin would be to find out what the scribe meant by bis abbreviations
Helmut: Your point is good one I think. You are right we can't say for certain what shapes any of the Voynich symbols correspond to, though I think one can have some degree of confidence that an "8" is an "8". The fact is, it seems to me, that we can truly say very little about the Voynich with certainty. Nevertheless, I am operating on the basis that we can have some degree of confidence in what I see as reasonable inferences.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Helmut Winkler - 16-05-2019
(16-05-2019, 11:41 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2019, 08:44 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark,
the 8 could be an s as well as a d as well as a an 8. The problem with the Vscript is that it is, unlike a book script, very variable, it is the script of an individual, that is why some people think there were different scribes at work. I think thw way to a soluruin would be to find out what the scribe meant by bis abbreviations
Helmut: Your point is good one I think. You are right we can't say for certain what shapes any of the Voynich symbols correspond to, though I think one can have some degree of confidence that an "8" is an "8". The fact is, it seems to me, that we can truly say very little about the Voynich with certainty. Nevertheless, I am operating on the basis that we can have some degree of confidence in what I see as reasonable inferences.
Well, to answer the question you ask: I feel quite sure that the gallows 4 is not a 4
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 16-05-2019
(16-05-2019, 04:28 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2019, 11:41 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2019, 08:44 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark,
the 8 could be an s as well as a d as well as a an 8. The problem with the Vscript is that it is, unlike a book script, very variable, it is the script of an individual, that is why some people think there were different scribes at work. I think thw way to a soluruin would be to find out what the scribe meant by bis abbreviations
Helmut: Your point is good one I think. You are right we can't say for certain what shapes any of the Voynich symbols correspond to, though I think one can have some degree of confidence that an "8" is an "8". The fact is, it seems to me, that we can truly say very little about the Voynich with certainty. Nevertheless, I am operating on the basis that we can have some degree of confidence in what I see as reasonable inferences.
Well, to answer the question you ask: I feel quite sure that the gallows 4 is not a 4
That is interesting, why do you think that?
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Helmut Winkler - 16-05-2019
That is interesting, why do you think that?
[/quote]
Because it does not look the leeast like a medieval 4, I mean, look at the published exxamples andd the 4's in the ms.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 16-05-2019
(16-05-2019, 05:21 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is interesting, why do you think that?
Because it does not look the leeast like a medieval 4, I mean, look at the published exxamples andd the 4's in the ms.
[/quote]
Well it looks like the medieval 4's that I have seen and it looks like the 4's in the manuscript. I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am refering to the left side of the gallows characters that have a loop on that side. Such as the 't' character. If I understand Rene and JKP correctly they are both inclined to the view that there is a similarity, not that they are necessarily correct.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Helmut Winkler - 16-05-2019
(16-05-2019, 06:08 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2019, 05:21 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is interesting, why do you think that?
Because it does not look the leeast like a medieval 4, I mean, look at the published exxamples andd the 4's in the ms.
Well it looks like the medieval 4's that I have seen and it looks like the 4's in the manuscript. I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am refering to the left side of the gallows characters that have a loop on that side. Such as the 't' character. If I understand Rene and JKP correctly they are both inclined to the view that there is a similarity, not that they are necessarily correct.
[/quote]
Of course there is a similarity, but the loops in the gallows are rounded, the 4's have a sharp point, the best examples are the 4o abbr.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 16-05-2019
(16-05-2019, 06:46 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2019, 06:08 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-05-2019, 05:21 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is interesting, why do you think that?
Because it does not look the leeast like a medieval 4, I mean, look at the published exxamples andd the 4's in the ms.
Well it looks like the medieval 4's that I have seen and it looks like the 4's in the manuscript. I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I am refering to the left side of the gallows characters that have a loop on that side. Such as the 't' character. If I understand Rene and JKP correctly they are both inclined to the view that there is a similarity, not that they are necessarily correct.
Of course there is a similarity, but the loops in the gallows are rounded, the 4's have a sharp point, the best examples are the 4o abbr.
[/quote]
My perception is that they do have a sharp point. I think when analysing the shapes in aggregate this is even more apparent. I believe as I have stated earlier in this thread the question is whether we have triangles or not. I think this question can be answered rigourously.
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - -JKP- - 16-05-2019
(16-05-2019, 11:41 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Helmut: Your point is good one I think. You are right we can't say for certain what shapes any of the Voynich symbols correspond to, though I think one can have some degree of confidence that an "8" is an "8"...
Why? The figure-8 was used as the letter s or the letter d in manuscripts far more often than numbers. Some manuscripts have no numbers at all but they have the d character in abundance. How can you be confident it is an 8?
RE: The top left hand loop of the gallows characters is a 4. Who disagrees? - Mark Knowles - 16-05-2019
JKP: Again, I think you miss my point. The question I am concerned with is not the function of a symbol, but rather what a symbol looks like visually. From my point of view the question I am interested in this context is if the Voynich "8" is visually speaking an "8", not what the function of the symbol "8" has.
If you take the context of the diplomatic ciphers that I am interested in then in general the symbols meanings don't correspond to external meanings, so my own interests are in visual identification.