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+--- Thread: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. (/thread-5351.html)
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f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - Koen G - 11-02-2026
I don't remember if this was discussed before - if it was, then it should probably be discussed again.
There are some remarkable parallels between f67v2 and the structure and additional elements of the rosettes foldout. It's very hard to show this in an image since the foldout is huge, badly faded at the edges, and f67v2 also has faded parts. But I will try. I hope the image is not too large on your screen. These are the elements I marked:
- The four corners have circular elements outside of the main diagram. In the Rosettes, these are two circular elements and two suns.
- Two suns, one top left and one bottom right. Rosettes has them outside, f67v2 inside.
- Each corner has an element that points towards the center but doesn't touch it.
- On the vertical and horizontal axes, four elements are connected to the center, fanning outwards.
- Connected dots in a circle. F67v2 emphasizes these, while the rosettes has just one instance of smaller connected dots bottom left.
- T-in-O diagram connected on the outside on the NE-SW diagonal axis, but on opposing sides. Would more things match up after 180° rotation?
- Similar use of patterns. Both use overlapping layers of scallops. Fanning out lines with dots in the proximity of a celestial body. Indications of shared visual language.
I think at the very least, we can say that both folios are aware of one another and employ the same visual vocabulary. The two suns, T-O diagram and connected dots also suggest a correspondence in contents, but rather in a way where both folios are complementary rather than overlapping.
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - Mark Knowles - 11-02-2026
Personally, I don't see very much in common other than the normal coincidentalities that would expected to find by chance and the standard basic elements like the suns and T/O map.
It does however raise the question in my mind again as to how we distinguish between visual illustration parallels that are merely coincidental and visual illustration parallels for which there is a geninue relationship.
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - pjburkshire - 11-02-2026
One page is at the beginning of the story. The other page (grand finale) is at the end of the story. We still don't have agreement on the story itself.
I think the story is life. I know most people don't agree with me. I'm not sure there is anyone who agrees with me. So much of religious writing is all about getting souls from Earth to Heaven. I see the Voynich Manuscript as being about getting souls from Heaven to Earth. A refreshing change!
Since I see Quire 9 as the start of the story of life that is being told (Heaven --> Earth --> Heaven), I think f67v2 is about the spiritual or heavenly or zodiac influences on the soul. I know I sound like a broken record (do young people today even know that phrase??), I think the star-like image in the box in the center is the pre-born soul being prepared for its journey to Earth. What those mystical zodiac influences are, I have no idea. I really hope someday someone can tell me the meaning in the text.
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - Koen G - 11-02-2026
Mark: it's easy to show that these similarities are coincidental by pointing out how common their ingredients are. So all you need to do to obliterate my argument is to show some other diagrams that have a T-O diagram attached to an outside corner and, for example, have two suns on opposite sides.
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - Dana Scott - 12-02-2026
(11-02-2026, 02:56 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark: it's easy to show that these similarities are coincidental by pointing out how common their ingredients are. So all you need to do to obliterate my argument is to show some other diagrams that have a T-O diagram attached to an outside corner and, for example, have two suns on opposite sides.
Two suns might represent the rising and setting suns.
Regards,
Dana Scott
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - MarcoP - 12-02-2026
(12-02-2026, 10:18 AM)Dana Scott Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Two suns might represent the rising and setting suns.
That certainly is a possibility. I am sure we discussed examples in the past. This diagram with rising and setting suns is from Liber Floridus. In the case of the Voynich diagrams, it's not clear what the T-O maps stand for, if the two suns stand for East and West. T-O maps typically represent Terra, but the Earth is expected to be at the center of the cosmos, not in a specific cardinal direction.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an example of a manuscript that includes two similar diagrams representing the seasons, the elements and the Galenic properties. The first one (Byrhtferth’s diagram) is larger and more complex than the second one.
It’s certainly possible that there is a considerable overlap in the contents of the two Voynich diagrams. In Koen’s analysis, there's a striking amount of dynamic information, with fluxes going both from the center to the outside and from the outside to the center. Most medieval diagrams are quite static (like the two from MS 17), or feature a single radial direction (e.g. winds blowing from the outside circle towards the earth at the center of the diagram). The Liber Floridus diagram also shows flows (tides, maybe?).
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - Searcher - 12-02-2026
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RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - Searcher - 12-02-2026
For me, a particularly important indicator is that one diagram includes both the Sun and the Moon, whereas the other (f86r) shows only the Sun — at least in terms of clearly recognizable imagery. In my view, the Sun on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents west and east only indirectly, functioning as a symbol of the solar cycle.
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - Koen G - 12-02-2026
(12-02-2026, 01:14 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I knew it! Voynich amnesia strikes again.
I agree that both diagrams have differences, and their purpose must be different. But they seem to be laid out along a similar plan. Can we agree that a representation of the world outside of the diagram is an unusual feature to find in two diagrams? And then on top of that, you have two suns. In the rosettes, they sit at the same level as the world - outside of the diagram, surrounding a starry centre. And on the other folio, the sun's are even more central than the earth emblem. And then there is the twofold four-sided connection to the centre, with similar dynamics.
To be perfectly clear, I don't have the slightest idea what this is about. But being aware of this connection seems essential to enrich our understanding.
RE: f67v2 is a bit like the Rosettes foldout but without the rosettes. - pjburkshire - 12-02-2026
(12-02-2026, 12:39 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In the case of the Voynich diagrams, it's not clear what the T-O maps stand for, if the two suns stand for East and West. T-O maps typically represent Terra, but the Earth is expected to be at the center of the cosmos, not in a specific cardinal direction.
In my opinion, the T-O maps in the Voynich Manuscript represent the Nobility (The Ruling Class).
In the Voynich Manuscript I see representation for 3 classes:
1. Those who fight -- Nobility
2. Those who pray -- Clergy
3. Those who work -- Everyone else