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+--- Thread: Why and how the text could be Bavarian (/thread-5312.html)
Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 29-01-2026
Part 1 The cryptographic pitfalls of the VMS – theories
1. Noise injection In 15th-century cryptography, it was common practice to simply repeat letters and even words in order to make decryption more difficult. I assume that most of the repetitions in the VMS represent zero words, some with individual letter changes. These have not been scattered according to a pattern, but purely at random.
Example: I live in the city = I live leve lige in the city. This is encrypted and you have a problem.
Zero words are adapted to the first glyphs to make them easier to recognise.
2. Null lines: We know that the first lines of many pages have special features. I assume that these are Null lines, some of which are even based on Latin sentences. I myself have managed to squeeze several first lines into a Latin pattern, which then tilted in the second and third lines. This is a kind of psychological warfare: an attacker ( someone who wants to solve the manuscript) in the 15th century was educated. If he found a Latin clue at the beginning, he was psychologically programmed to interpret the rest of the book in Latin. This impression is further reinforced by Latin ligatures in VMS. The author laid a false trail that makes deciphering the manuscript an endless task, because the reader tries to squeeze what is actually a different language into Latin declensions.
3. Weird Lines: As I have shown here, a striking number of the last two or three lines are ‘weird lines’. I assume that when the writer had finished a text, he simply added blank lines at the end of the text that are complete nonsense (or perhaps they are incantations after all
.)4. I assume that the text was written in Bavarian-Austrian slang, phonetically, as was customary at the time. Furthermore, the sentences are not even grammatically correct. In the 15th century, it would have been easy for a Bavarian to realise that his village dialect could not be understood by many other people (for example, in the larger city where he had been living for decades). A perfect disguise.
5. Then the text was shortened, terms were changed and a cipher was superimposed, which massively destroyed further information in the text. This would be about as difficult to decipher as the Native American languages with their coded terms during the Second World War:
6. So I also assume that "qo" is only a marker. It defines how the following Gallow glyph or other glyphs should be read.
7. I assume that the Gallow glyphs stand for consonant clusters: In Bavarian, there are hard consonant clusters (st, sch, cht, pf, gn, br, etc.) often at the beginning of a word. If a single Gallow character stands for an entire cluster or cluster type, then the words shrink together. There are at least 8 Gallow glyphs; with a switch, there would be 16. Realistically, with a switch, perhaps 10 to 12 of these would be used more frequently. This allows you to use most of the consonant clusters.
o Possible example:
o Labial (lips): b / p = pf / br / ps
o Dental (teeth): d / t = zt / ts (z)
o Velars (palate): g / k = ks (x) / kch
o Sibilants/fricatives: s / f / h = sch / cht / sp
8. Vowel reduction: I assume that the vowels reflect the Bavarian sound of the 15th century. "a" and "o" are phonetically almost interchangeable in Bavarian (darkening). The “e” is consistently ‘swallowed’ in Bavarian or replaced by other vowels, which eliminates the typical letter frequency. This leaves primarily "o/a" "i" and "u" as the dominant vowels. This explains why statistical analyses based on standard languages come up empty here.
9. I assume that the y at the end pulls a vowel (probably "i" or "u") backwards – both as a Latin disguise (the "9" as a ligature) and to achieve a vowel disguise. So possibly a zero glyph at the end of a line and otherwise a vowel.
10. I assume that short words were omitted on one side, if possible (articles), or were added to the other words on the other side. This is typical of Bavarian, for example:
Standard German: Hol die Wurzel
Bavarian: Hoi d'Wurzn
Phonetic/VMS style: hoid wurzn
At the same time, words in Bavarian are very often truncated at the end (endings are omitted).
So the words have mostly 4-7 Letters.
----
That's it for now, enjoy. I still need more time for part 2 – it's going to be very exciting, or not. I know part 1 won't stand up to your criticism, but as always, I don't care at all
.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Rafal - 29-01-2026
Do I understand correctly that you suggest not simply Bavarian but some "obfuscated" Bavarian - with null words, repeated words, phonetic spelling, tricks like Pig Latin ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) and so on?
Well,I am looking forward to see more
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - eggyk - 29-01-2026
If the author's plaintext was bavarian-austrian slang that was shortened, which only could be understood by a select few people (if anyone at all), why go through the extra steps of:
1) changing the plaintext letters to a ciphertext
2) inserting red herring latin markers in only the first lines in order to make it harder to understand
How would another reader (presumably a student, friend, or colleague) read the manuscript? How would they know which words are null words if they are by definition placed at random?
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) - 29-01-2026
All this sounds very interesting. I think you are on a good track and I look forward to your second part.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 29-01-2026
(29-01-2026, 07:03 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do I understand correctly that you suggest not simply Bavarian but some "obfuscated" Bavarian - with null words, repeated words, phonetic spelling, tricks like Pig Latin ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) and so on?
Yes, that is correct, but I believe that Latin phrases only appear in the first lines, precisely to mislead the solvers.
(29-01-2026, 07:13 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the author's plaintext was bavarian-austrian slang that was shortened, which only could be understood by a select few people (if anyone at all), why go through the extra steps of:
1) changing the plaintext letters to a ciphertext
2) inserting red herring latin markers in only the first lines in order to make it harder to understand
How would another reader (presumably a student, friend, or colleague) read the manuscript? How would they know which words are null words if they are by definition placed at random?
I think he was afraid. Certain topics were dangerous enough in the early years of the 15th century to land you in prison or worse.
A shorten Bavarian dialect alone would have been too easy to decipher – especially since there are similarities between the different dialects.
The Latin markers would be a perfect deception, especially for scholars, church people, judges, and others.
You can only read it under the following conditions, and I can reveal that much:
1. You have to know the cipher code.
2. You have to know the dialect.
3. You have to know what the text is about.
In principle, zero words can already be recognised in the text if you know how they are constructed (e.g. the same word with a letter shift). But I think they are a little more complex to recognise, although I don't have an idea for that yet.
(29-01-2026, 07:55 PM)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All this sounds very interesting. I think you are on a good track and I look forward to your second part.
Thanks, so far it's just another theory, but it could explain some of the strange things of the VMS.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Jorge_Stolfi - 29-01-2026
(29-01-2026, 08:24 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, that is correct, but I believe that Latin phrases only appear in the first lines, precisely to mislead the solvers.
In herbals the first line has the name of the plant, and that is often in Latin, even if the rest of the text is in vernacular. here is an example in Italian. "Centaurea" could be both Latin or Italian, but "major" and "minor" are Latin, not Italian.
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All the best, --stolfi
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 30-01-2026
@ Stolfi
Yes, I am aware of that. There are other examples, too: Here from ‘Ortloff von baierland’
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At the bottom left, in a Bavarian text, it says:
Anguis a naribus fluit · das ist dz die nas plütet (first latin, then german / bavarian (engl: that is, the nose bleeds)
Here, the disease is named in Latin.
So it could be many things. But I meant something else, i think it is a trick. We won't be able to clarify it – If you want to decipher the VMS text, you should therefore treat the first line separately for purely pragmatic reasons.
The statistics show that something is different about the first lines. ---
For those who are interested, here is the entire text, since I transcribed it anyway. But it is, so to speak, ‘High Bavarian’ with little slang and only few abbreviations.
example of abreviations:
"Komt es aber von dem haubt so ist im vorzn in der stirn wee" High German: Kommt es aber vom Kopf her, dann hat er zuvor Schmerzen in der Stirn.“ engl: But if it comes from the head, then he has pain in his forehead beforehand.
There's already a shortcut here: vorzn = vor zen (before)
If you were to write the whole sentence in slang = (contracted) and then more phonetically , it would look something like this:
komts aba vom Haubt sois im vorzn inda stirn wee
The short words merge with other normal words or with other short words.
komt es = komts / kimts /kümts
von dem = vonm / vonem / vonim / vom (wie use "vom" in High German, too)
so ist = sosts / sost / sist / sois /
in der = inde / inda /inte
(and much other variants)
Now the whole Text: "Nosebleed"
Anguis a naribus fluit · das ist dz die nas
plütet · das komt etwenn in eynem sucht vn
in eynem bekerung · so sol man es nit vertůn
Das es sey dann das der mensch zelang plüetet vnd das
er kranck werd · do solt im also helffen. Nim ei hand
vol krauts das do heyst sanguinaria oder bursa pastoris
· vnd hab im es für die nasen es versteet. Komt
es aber von dem haubt so ist im vorzn in der stirn wee·
wenn im der flus komt des plůts so hilfft das kraut.
Hat aber er nicht hitz vnd ist nicht in eyner fuchte
vnd plüttet es zesere so kompt es von dem haubt · so
laß man im auf der haubtaeder. Kompt aber es von
der lebern so ist im wee in der rechten seiten so laß man
im auf der rechten hand. komt es aber von de miltz
so ist im in der lincken seitten wee so laf im auf der
lincken hand. Das ist auch die aller edelst ertznei die
ye ward. Gurt in nicht laß im mit vil oben also das
er die nacht plos lige vn gewß im wasser · das halb
effich sey an die stirn vnd thů im die naslöcher vast
mit der hand ezů vnnd hab im das gemächt in eyn
kaltes wasser. Wollrdt das plůt schier verstellen
wo es an dem leib außgee so solt du nemen den kerne
des vichtbawms vnd stoß den gar klein vnd misch
das mit eynem weissen des eys vnd behalt das wie
lang du das wallest vnnd warauff du das legest so
versteet das plůt allzehand. Wem das plůt gar sere
aus der nasen rinnet so sol man nemen einen hirssin
riemen vnd sol im die arm vast binden bei den schulttern
· vnnd nym den keren der in dem horn sey vnnd
rauch den menschen domit der do plůtet vnd scheub
im des eyn teyl in die nasen so versteet dz plůt zehand.
Hilffet das nicht so nim grob nussschalen vnnd füll
die mit bech das in eyner pfannen zerlassen sey · vnd
sturtz die über die tynne so versteet dz plůt zehand.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Jorge_Stolfi - 30-01-2026
(30-01-2026, 08:12 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now the whole Text: "Nosebleed"
...
wenn im der flus komt des plůts so hilfft das kraut.
Hat aber er nicht hitz vnd ist nicht in eyner fuchte
vnd plüttet es zesere so kompt es von dem haubt · so
laß man im auf der haubtaeder. Kompt aber es von...
Indeed the word lengths seem similar to those of Voynichese. Hmm...
I studied German from a self-learn book back in my 20s. But I had to stop after three months because I had borrowed the book from my girlfriend and we split up. Well, one advantage of knowing very little German is that your Bavarian example above looks quite like German to me...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Rafal - 30-01-2026
Notice that he writes plůt instead of blut (blood).
AI tells me that this "p" instead of "b" seems to be a very south German / Swiss thing.
So "pox leber" from the last page is regional, it points south.
There is a serious chance that the scribe spoke Bavarian in his everyday life but did he use it in the manuscript?
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - DG97EEB - 30-01-2026
(30-01-2026, 02:01 PM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Notice that he writes plůt instead of blut (blood).
AI tells me that this "p" instead of "b" seems to be a very south German / Swiss thing.
So "pox leber" from the last page is regional, it points south.
There is a serious chance that the scribe spoke Bavarian in his everyday life but did he use it in the manuscript?
Did Bavaria exist then? My theory is also a southern German, meaning Swabia/Konstanz or ultra Montane as the Italians called them. Possibly a German educated in Padua who then returned North...