Options

Jupiter

Index
Jupiter
Jupiter

VViews > 31-10-2016, 06:43 PM

The cluster of seven stars on f68r3 is often compared to the Pleiades.
I just noticed an illustration from a version of Speculum Humanae Salvationis, where a similar cluster is used to depict Jupiter.
I wonder why that is? Here is the illustration:

f8r, GKS 79 °2, Kongelige Bibliotek, Denmark (Germany, c. 1430)
RE: Jupiter

MarcoP > 31-10-2016, 06:52 PM

Thank you, VViews, it's a very interesting illustration.
I cannot answer your question, but some of the other planet personifications are peculiar. Venus and Saturn seem to be represented by their "children" (a lover and a hanged man). This possibly apply to Mars and Mercury too. But Jupiter is even stranger.

The only thing that comes to my mind is that, since Jupiter is the king of the seven planets, all the seven have been included in its medallion.
RE: Jupiter

Anton > 31-10-2016, 08:15 PM

That may be because it was Jupiter (originally Zeus) who turned seven Pleiades into stars (or so the myth goes )
RE: Jupiter

Koen G > 31-10-2016, 08:45 PM

(31-10-2016, 08:15 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That may be because it was Jupiter (originally Zeus) who turned seven Pleiades into stars (or so the myth goes )

That might be, but Zeus created about half the constellations and stars that way. Whenever he needed to reward someone or save one of his flings - *poof* - new constellation. I don't know why there would be a special link with the Pleiades. My gut feeling is that something along the lines of Marco's suggestion is more likely. Ruler of the heavens.
RE: Jupiter

Anton > 31-10-2016, 09:08 PM

Thread moved as unrelated to the VMS.
RE: Jupiter

VViews > 31-10-2016, 11:53 PM

Unrelated...?

I'm not going to argue that the Voynich image IS jupiter, but I thought the comparison was relevant. What I didn't understand is why Jupiter would be depicted as a seven star cluster, and other posters provided insight.
If you can categorically rule that these two images are unrelated, you've clearly got a better grasp of Voynichese than I do.
RE: Jupiter

Anton > 01-11-2016, 12:21 AM

Moved back

It really appeared unrelated, since you provided no argument neither proposed any analogy.

I don't think that doary might designate Jupiter. Note that here we have the Moon in the centre, not the Sun. And the number of "designated " stars (Pleiades counted as one) here is 11, which is more than the number of (then known) planets.
RE: Jupiter

VViews > 01-11-2016, 01:53 AM

(01-11-2016, 12:21 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Note that here we have the Moon in the centre, not the Sun. And the number of "designated " stars (Pleiades counted as one) here is 11, which is more than the number of (then known) planets.

Anton,

This is true, and as I said I didn't post this as a claim that this is Jupiter... but if I were to try and find another way to look at the problem, the two ("jupiter" and "moon") could be connected in the Voynich illustration because they are the only two planets being observed in that sky, the others being stars.
Forgive my ignorance on this point, but what are the arguments given in Voynich studies for why the moon is connected to the Pleiades anyway? All I've read is P. Han's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. explanation for that.

On another note: designated stars, you say... Sounds like something I should try to count!
RE: Jupiter

-JKP- > 01-11-2016, 02:14 AM

Thanks, VViews.

I've been saying since early 2014 (yes, there's a reason for that specific date that posters might recognize) that seven stars can represent quite a few things besides Pleiades.

In medieval geomantic illustrations, the constellations (and other celestial objects) are represented/symbolized with dots that look like the patterns on domino bricks and several of them use seven dots arranged in different ways. The number seven is certainly not limited to Pleiades.

Also, as it was understood at the time, our solar system was represented with seven dots or seven stars.

Of course the seven-star grouping might be Pleiades, the seven sisters are legendary, going way back to ancient times, but not necessarily and I'm glad you created this thread.

My break is over, I have to get back to work, so I can't hunt up a medieval example, but here is a contemporary example:
RE: Jupiter

Diane > 01-11-2016, 05:17 AM

Geomantic figures are an old tradition in north Africa, and probably pre-Islamic.

Correlation to various asterisms is attested by a device I've often mentioned, treated by Emlie Savage-Smith some years ago in a small book entitled, A thirteenth-century divinatory device'.. but see also her later paper "Another look at....'

Michel Scot's works on astronomy, composed in Sicily, include geomantic forms in imagery not actually showing the GrecoRoman figures, but which are named by translating their characters to the nearest Roman equivalent as e.g. Venus or Juppiter(sic.).

I haven't looked at that material for a while but as I recall, Scot's "Juppiter" is associated with the geomantic figure for the Pleiades (using the same system employed in that geomantic device described by Savage-Smith).

Cornelius Agrippa's system comes late, and while it seems to be based on a genuine source - he understands the African system for generating the figures - his given relationship between asterisms and geomantic figures appears not to have been original in Africa, and as an artificial system appears to have been a highly variable set of correspondences..

My guess is that the image from GKS 79 °2 (shown above) was derived at some remove from Scot.

Scot's "Juppiter" is illustrated in Jim Tester's History of Western Astrology (Boydell Press) if anyone wants to see it.
Next Oldest Next Newest

Jupiter

Index

Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter

RE: Jupiter