The Voynich Ninja

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Strange that in his list of possible ways the text could have been created he doesn't mention either the artificial language hypothesis or the exotic natural language hypothesis, although he does mention "codebook" and "unknown script".

He also says that Rugg's proposed method "is consistent with 15th century knowledge", even though the Cardan grille wasn't invented until the 16th century (as far as we know).

Then he says "If Gordon (or somebody else) can name a set of tables and grilles (and maybe some additional instructions) that produce exactly a paragraph from the Voynich manuscript, the debate can be finished."  But of course this is not true, since it's trivial to construct such a table and grille for any text.  An example can be found here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I agree with the article that if the VM were in a cipher in the absolutely most narrow possible sense, that we would have probably understood it better already.

But then, like Sam says, he dismisses the other option way too easily by saying that unknown scripts are basically ciphers. The idea behind this seems to be that any unknown script will:

1. convert a relatively normal text
   
2. in a language that we understand
   
3. in a way that we understand
   

This is far from the truth, since several inscriptions and writing systems have been found that are still not understood today.

What the author says is basically "it's a cipher or it's fake, and I don't understand it so it must be fake".

But there are so many other options. What if it was a now forgotten pidgin? A pidgin is a "language" that comes to exist when a number of groups who share no common language have to interact with each other (usually for trading). I'm pasting this from the wiki, see how many properties of Voynichese you can spot:

Quote:Pidgins are usually less morphologically complex but more syntactically rigid than other languages, usually have less morphosyntactic irregularities than other languages, and often consist of:

• Uncomplicated clausal structure (e.g., no embedded clauses, etc.)
  
• Reduction or elimination of syllable codas
  
• Reduction of consonant clusters or breaking them with epenthesis
  
• Basic vowels, such as [a, e, i, o, u]
  
• No tones, such as those found in West African, Asian and many North American Indigenous languages
  
• Use of separate words to indicate tense, usually preceding the verb
  
• Use of reduplication to represent plurals, superlatives, and other parts of speech that represent the concept being increased
  
• A lack of morphophonemic variation
  

And what if the script also came into existence in a similar way, to represent this pidgin in a way that all involved could read with some ease? And what if it evolved organically over time? Would this still be a simple, easy to understand cipher?

(This is not what I say it must be, but it is one of the scenarios I find most likely. I just like to give a concrete example.)

The problem with some standard device or "grille" to generate meaningless text is that such method would produce regular text without any artifacts (like those posted numerously by Wladimir). In my opinion, Rugg's explanation (as reported by Pelling and Schmeh, I haven't read the original article by Rugg) can be waived off just on this basis alone. Strange that Schmeh says nothing about this.

(30-10-2016, 08:01 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The problem with some standard device or "grille" to generate meaningless text is that such method would produce regular text without any artifacts (like those posted numerously by Wladimir). In my opinion, Rugg's explanation (as reported by Pelling and Schmeh, I haven't read the original article by Rugg) can be waived off just on this basis alone. Strange that Schmeh says nothing about this.

Another consideration is patterns within and between sections, which definitely exist in the VMS.

In a Rugg system, which is designed to create meaningless text that looks semi-legit as quickly as possible, the time it would take to work out these relationships and make them consistent throughout the manuscript would negate the time savings in using a grille for doing it fast. The two are at odds with each other. Someone creating a fraud manuscript simply wouldn't take the time to make it work this way unless they had a few screws loose (which, I suppose, is possible, but not the most likely explanation).

Yes surely. My favorite example is the otol/odaiin one. The two most frequent Voynich stars (labeled objects of f68r1 and r2) are both mentioned in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and both in the same paragraph (while no other Voyncih star is mentioned in f1r).

The Cardan grille is a solution that one can easy shout to the mass, without any proof you can also say that the text is made by a aliens.

The proof of a Cardan grille lies in the simple fact that the positions of at least several letters, preferably words, in every page have to have the exact same distance in relation to each other.  Every 10-year old can check with a ruler, on a Sunday morning, that this is not likely to be found. Also, it does not explain the pages with the labels, and it does not explain 57v, it does not explain the page with only "otaim dam alam", it does not explain the Rosette page, etc. etc.


That this forum page is made with a Cardan grille is more likely, than the Voynich manuscript with its crooked and flowing lines and many different lay-outs.

(04-11-2016, 12:36 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Every 10-year old can check with a ruler, on a Sunday morning, that this is not likely to be found.

Before or after church, Davidsch?