(27-10-2016, 10:23 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... [deleted for brevity] ...
The point is rather that a person who first brings new information, data, argument and original research to this study deserves due recognition. To do otherwise is to create a false impression that the non-crediting writer actually discovered it themselves - which is false - or to hinder the efforts of people wanting to see what basis the original proponent had for any ideas that now circulate. Such things are, or should be, self-evident to any scholar so I apologise for stating the obvious here.
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You have no way of knowing whether the non-crediting writer discovered something independently or not.
If we are submitting to academic journals, it's important to look up the previous research and cite it so that old ground is not constantly rehashed, but that is a separate issue from whether a researcher independently discovered something about the manuscript.
Do you want researchers to credit previous researchers they've never read (or sometimes never even heard of)? That would create an even greater false impression.
Well I'm sure that the best and most transparent way to suggest one's comments in regard to anything Dr. Rampling may have misquoted or misinterpreted is to either approach the Yale press as the publishing entity or to contact her directly. I checked, and she appears to be on ResearchGate (I guess the lady from Princeton that's her?!), I just followed her.
May I now kindly suggest that the talk returns from the off-topic path to the subject matter.
The subject matter was:
Dr. Jennifer Rampling of Princeton has written a nice scholarly essay in the new Yale book (and there are no issues with her citations, by the way).
Her credentials were already provided in a link by Marco: You are not allowed to view links.
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She compares the illustrations in the Voynich MS with some European traditions, in particular the alchemical one. She nicely explains the complications in doing that.
I pointed out that she included an interesting illustration showing details in a German MS, and I complimented Ellie for already finding this already before. She responded in all modesty.
If such parallels are pointed out by a recognised scholar in a formal publication, they carry more weight than if they are shown in someone's blog. At the same time, they can be seen by the blogger as a nice confirmation that one seems to have found something relevant.
I considered the denigrating comment to Ellie inappropriate since it was attacking the scholarly publication just as much as her.
For me, the picture shows an interesting observation, that in itself doesn't prove anything (no 'smoking guns' in the book), but should be added to the list of evidence, and may help people trying to explain it all.
The discussion about this manuscript is interesting, so I split this thread so we can stick to discussion about the new book and its articles in the original one.
Of course it is understandable why this image reminds people of the VM. I would also share it if I came across it, especially since the human figures do look a bit similar.
This discussion reminds me of what JKP recently said about alchemical imagery, that it's so recognizable for those who know about it, and in that sense not very "secret" at all. I think that is what Diane is getting at here: we can immediately place this image within the alchemical tradition, and people familiar with its imagery will understand at first sight what it means. I am not that familiar with it, but I immediately see moon-blue-female separated from sun-red-male. No such distinction appears to inform the VM bathing sections.
The VM appears to have a different cultural approach to nudity altogether. The VM makes no problem of women and men being naked together, and while the women in the other MS are depicted in a rather standard "modest pose", those in the VM are You are not allowed to view links.
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(28-10-2016, 08:59 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The VM appears to have a different cultural approach to nudity altogether. The VM makes no problem of women and men being naked together, and while the women in the other MS are depicted in a rather standard "modest pose", those in the VM are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I don't think this Book of Holy Trinity illustration depicts women in a "modest pose": they are not covering their breasts and nipples but (on the contrary) putting them in great evidence.
I also don't think there is a "problem" with women and men being naked together: the two pillars here clearly represent alchemical opposites, marked by the Moon (women) and Sun (men) symbols. The separation of the two sexes is functional to the concept being illustrated, not to some kind of prudery. I cannot read the text, so these are just the impressions I get from the illustration.
With modest I don't mean prudish, just "composed". They don't have a reason to cover up because it's a women only bath. Whatever the case may be, I think the observation remains a valid one that we can immediately recognize the tradition and grasp its meaning at a basic level. Like you say, the elements in the image are functional parts of alchemical vocabulary.
I do think it is interesting to compare such images to the VM. To see similarities but also You are not allowed to view links.
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(28-10-2016, 09:41 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[deleted for brevity]...
I also don't think there is a "problem" with women and men being naked together: the two pillars here clearly represent alchemical opposites, marked by the Moon (women) and Sun (men) symbols. The separation of the two sexes is functional to the concept being illustrated, not to some kind of prudery. I cannot read the text, so these are just the impressions I get from the illustration.
It's old German, and the spelling is pretty funky (and the handwriting hard to see in some spots), but the parts I can see clearly enough don't really add much to the understanding of the images.
It talks about immersing/dissolving/committing the bodies to/in the water and how the combination of the two kinds of baths/water become one bath ("zweiern wassen macht ein wass") and that whoever understands this is humbled by "riches". It says a bath is good; it refreshes the blood. When through [the action of] the two waters is made the "edel pflaster", all sickness is expelled ("alle kranckheit ist vertreiben").
These days "pflaster" generally refers to things that are hard like pavement or plaster, or to things like adhesives and bandages and plaster (as in a plaster cast), but I've come across it a few times in old manuscripts where it refers to a "poultice". But, if this text is allegorical rather than literal, they might mean "the quickening" or "the hardening". I'm not sure.
Most of it seems fairly literal, however, not particularly allegorical.
What makes the image interesting (in my opinion) is the flow of alch. substance from pool to pool - similar to fountain.
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For me, this is an entirely new ms. Thank you Ellie.
There are many image details in this ms, that are very interesting.
To me, this ms seems to be made later than the VMS, the text has also remarkable features.
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But what are those two last letters ?
Also similar paragraph line endings on next page 8r...
-----------
f7-8r
(Letzte Regeln
In der newin stern schein und
Und mit den vier roselein die andern ding sint tozheyt ab
dies Elixir ist die warheit .. ?
(28-10-2016, 01:17 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But what are those two last letters ?
Also similar paragraph line endings on next page 8r...
-----------
f7-8r
(Letzte Regeln
In der newin stern schein und
Und mit den vier roselein die andern ding sint tozheyt ab
dies Elixir ist die warheit .. ?
It is "et cetera". 7 for et and c with an abbreviation hook for cetera