R.Sale:
I have in fact entertained the idea that the "bulls" and the goats were indeed sacrificial animals, likely in a Greco-Roman Egyptian context. The idea behind the calendar roundels would then be that the centre originally depicted concepts associated with certain feasts. I have become much less convinced of this than since I first wrote about it, but nonetheless I still keep the possibility open.
The color of animals was surely important in sacrifice. Still in the Greco-Roman period for example, red animals were sacrificed to Set, whose worship continued in places like Dendera. Interestingly, also fish and lobsters were ritually killed for the god. For the same reason I think/thought Scorpio was originally a black pig, because those were also strongly associated with Set. That's almost half the VM zodiac sacrificed
I still don't see why a connection with heraldry must be made though. As I have demonstrated, both simple and complex patterns on the barrels can be found on Ptolemaic or Roman period works of art. This is compatible with my view on the manuscript as a whole (trade, navigation, astronomy...) so I see no reason to assume that heraldry played an important role in its creation. Especially because I can't see how heraldry connects to hundreds of strangely shaped naked women, and well over a hundred plant images that were already called "exotic" by Baresch...
Koen,
The only distinction I am making is in the practice of celestial sacrifice as compared with *non*-celestial sacrifice. Both Homer and Hebrew tradition indicate it was a standard practice to sacrifice white animals to the gods of the celestial spheres. This was known to the VMs author. This was used by the VMs author. The simple purpose here is to associate the celestial with the celestial.
And how can this second celestial item be identified? Certainly not by a person's facial characteristics, but by the heraldic and official ecclesiastical indicators that society has provided.
Heraldry works as a method of investigation because it can name and describe more of the tub patterns than any other system of identification. And given the early 1400s parchment dates, heraldry and a sort of heraldic culture, more than two centuries old and still growing stronger, is far more a part of the culture that was known to the VMs creator, than Hellenistic culture would be. Though a person, well-educated and widely traveled, would easily have some familiarity with Hellenistic artifacts.
Heraldry is the author's choice. It's a long way to go to add something to add to the significance of Stolfi's markers, but the illustrations give us what we have. Heraldry puts a name on it. Heraldry establishes a firm historical grounding. Heraldry actually connects - in the You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. illustration - with one of the markers. I certainly cannot accept that this is accidental happenstance. I see an intentional construction - the parts of which are: pairing, heraldry, historical identification, Stolfi's markers, then, most probably, the written text that the markers indicate. Why go to all of this intricate construction, all the positional confirmations present in the illustrations, for nothing?
Okay, bring in the brick wall. Heraldry does not fail. Heraldry brings us to language. And language fails. Language always fails. Brick wall!! But the purpose of this construction is not to leave it unused. Or does the pun just sit there unpunned?
(27-10-2016, 07:06 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now we're getting to it. One of the figures associated with the blue-striped patterns is *unquestionably female* and therefore the whole construction collapses. Let's look more closely at that illustration.
In keeping with the thorough painting of the page (f71r), the body of this 'nymph' has been colored red. So it seems unlikely that this figure is nude, as is generally seen on other pages. Then, in this pattern of red paint, there is something that looks like a breast, or a pocket on a shirt. Are we seeing something that is on the clothing or under the clothing? Certainly it is possible for overweight men to accumulate fat in such a way as to give a similar appearance *under* clothing. So the *unquestionably female* viewpoint is not unquestionable.
But also look at the structure of the illustration itself. Typically breasts are drawn with simple ink lines. But in this example, we have a collection of red dots. Do you think the artist painted each of these dots individually to create the current image?
The figure in question clearly has two breasts, like other figures in the VMS who are clearly intended to be female. I don't see it as ambiguous at all. But of course you're free to see whatever you want in any image.
Quote:Let's also look at the matter of the papelonny pattern. First of all, your alternating, black and white is not the best representation of this design. Take a look at the red and gold pattern attributed to Chotard Chateaubriand. All the scales are red and the lines used to define the pattern are gold.
Meanwhile, your 'Not Papelonny' counter example is simply not relevant. Besides the looping lines used to make the scales, it is crossed with a series of horizontal lines that are completely extraneous to the VMs illustration.
This is pointless nitpicking. I just grabbed two examples quickly to illustrate my point about the alignment of scales.
Quote:We have the VMs illustration, and in some cases the alignment of the scales does not match up with the line above. These patterns in the VMs are rather small, and perhaps a bit sloppy. And the VMs is not intended as an instruction manual for heraldry. Rather, I would argue that the illustrations are supposed to be evocative of heraldic patterns, sufficiently so that they convey the *idea* of papelonny, in this case, and that the reader is supposed to use that idea, rather than quibble about minor details.
This just sounds like a rationalization for the fact that the pattern in question here
isn't papelonny at all. Also, the illustrator does draw scale patterns much closer to papelonny in other parts of the VMS, such as at the top of You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. among other places. So why doesn't he properly reproduce papelonny in the Zodiac tubs where (according to you) it really matters?
Quote:That is, if the evocative interpretation makes sense in context, the interpretation is likely to be valid, even if the actual image isn't perfect in every detail.
I don't agree with this at all. It just sounds like an excuse to take a small portion of the image out of context and interpret it in any way that you want.
Quote:And while that is certainly more difficult to accomplish in the construction of a visual pun. We do have the fact that the location of the two papelonny patterns clearly does mimic the placement of the two blue-striped patterns as to the intentional placement in a specific quadrant and a specific celestial sphere. How is it that pape and papelonny are aligned *in pairs?*
You have a woman in a red hat and a scale pattern that isn't papelonny. There's nothing here that suggests that this is anything more than a meaningless coincidence.
Sam G,
Unfortunately, I detect a certain impatience in your comments, an urgent attempt to force a complex topic into an oversimplified reduction to absurdity. My comments are dismissed as "pointless nitpicking" and excuses, while the examples you "just gabbed" are to be given full weight, unexamined, even if irrelevant. You want to contradict what I have said, but you do not answer any of my questions about what is shown in the VMs illustrations.
Somewhere on VMs f71r, in the inner circle of characters, on the upper left quarter of the page, some poor 'nymph' has been caught between a blue-striped tub pattern and a red galero. This 'nymph' has had its torso painted. What does the fact of this painting represent? I say it represents clothing. Is there another interpretation? So it would a appear that whatever qualities the torso of this figure may possess, they are covered with a layer of cloth.
Throughout the VMs, illustrations of unclothed, female 'nymphs' have their breasts defined by simple ink lines. However, there is no such use of ink lines to indicate breasts apparent in this particular image. Instead, any indications of structure are provided in a highly atypical manner, i.e. by a smattering of reddish-brown dots. How is this done?
On the one hand, you argue that the papelonny pattern, because it has a few examples of misalignment, cannot be considered as a valid interpretation of the tub designs with these few flaws. The VMs is just full of flawless representations of externally sourced illustrations. And at the same time you suggest that the painter, frequently said to be a second person of much lesser skill than the inkster, working later and even unfamiliar with VMs content, can specifically locate and accurately depict a covered torso to represent potential breasts under clothing, where the inkster depicts none,and using a pointillist technique at a very intricate level of skill. Could you elaborate on this? The careless and sloppy VMs artist seems to possess a remarkable knowledge of where to paint this and just how to do so. That is a conundrum.
All it takes is a pair of blue-striped insignia and a red galero to make a historical connection. All that is needed then is to get the VMs blue-striped patterns oriented correctly. Stop falling for the radial influences. Then all the 'reader' needs is the knowledge of the historical origins of the tradition of the red galero and the armorial insignia of the pope involved (Innocent IV). It is a tradition that still continues in a fairly significant institution. This subjective, hypothetical, historically unique situation is illustrated in White Aries, where the pope made his nephew a cardinal (1251 CE).
A further examination based on the objective location of illustrated elements shows that the prospective pope and cardinal are in there traditional locations in the different celestial spheres. The armorial representations in question are positioned in the favored upper right quadrant of an armorial insignia. And the representations are placed on the same page as the White Aries medallion, to further link one celestial association with another celestial association.
And now if the papelonny pattern is valid, then it adds a heraldic canting confirmation and an independent, historical confirmation of the White Aries identification. If the pattern is not valid, it add nothing. But look, the patterns are still where they would need to be placed if they were valid. They correspond in both quadrant and sphere with the blue-striped patterns on f71r.
Is this an example of a concatenation of meaningless coincidence or an example of intentional construction?
I see a number of traditional interpretations drawn into the VMs illustrations that confirm a single, historical identification. You apparently find no identifications - unless you care to say otherwise. And I'm good with that.
Ah!, silence. That's the answer. Heraldry fails because of silence.
I have put forward heraldry as a method of investigation for tub patterns in the VMs Pisces and Aries pages. Various objections have been offered. I have offered a response, as above.
It cannot be logically supported that the painter of the VMs can be labelled as sloppy and lacking in knowledge of the subject and, at the same time, be fully relied upon to supply to a specific location, the most intimate of details in a completely atypical technique that requites a very high level precision.
It seems like a reasonable reply, but...
(01-11-2016, 06:37 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah!, silence. That's the answer. Heraldry fails because of silence.
Dear R. Sale, when you say "heraldry", which definition are you referring to? And what do you mean by "heraldry failing"?
Oxford gives me three definitions of "heraldry"
- the system by which coats of arms and other armorial bearings are devised, described, and regulated.
- armorial bearings or other heraldic symbols.
- colorful ceremony
(01-11-2016, 06:37 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah!, silence. That's the answer. Heraldry fails because of silence.
I already responded to you at some length and don't really have much new to add. E.g. I think the nymph with the red hat is female, you think it's male - not much more to discuss. Anyone interested can check for themselves.
Quote:I have put forward heraldry as a method of investigation for tub patterns in the VMs Pisces and Aries pages.
What "method"? Even supposing that you are right about this pape-papelonny thing, then what? What is the next step? How does this finding help us understand the rest of the manuscript? I already asked if you thought there was anything relating to heraldry in the rest of the Zodiac section and you didn't answer that unless I missed it.
W. M.,
I think the first two definitions are appropriate. Although heraldry in the VMs is quite limited, there are both armorial and ecclesiastical examples. The question I have asked of the ninja community is *why* heraldry is dismissed as an investigative possibility.
Sam G.
Let me answer your questions, then you answer mine.
The method is simply that standard heraldic patterns can name more of the examples found in the VMs tub patterns than any other set of traditional patterns. And this is the basis for further investigations based on heraldry, such as the possibility of historical identification.
In my view, armorial heraldry is limited to the patterned tubs which are only found on the first three VMs Zodiac pages. Ecclesiastical heraldry, red galeros, to designate the rank of cardinal, and white galeros, which identify the order of Premonstratensians, is limited to f71r.
The 'pape-papelonny thing' is only one of several objective, positional confirmations of the Fieschi identification. It does seem to possess some additional significance, as it would be rather difficult to create such a pun accidentally. The purpose of this papal identification is to amplify the significance of these patterned markers found in the circular bands of text, with the view that these marked text segments would play an important (but as yet undetermined) role in making sense of the text overall.
I do not disagree that the image of the particular figure is much like you describe. My question is how can we have unqualified faith in the representation supplied by the VMs painter? The general suggestion is that the VMs painter is sloppy and does not know what's what. To create the given image, the VMs painter needs to know exactly what to do unprompted by any clues from the ink drawing. And the painter is using an atypical technique that requires a level of skill well beyond that of the ink outlines.
I would say that the ink drawing presents a figure that is probably male, while the painted addition presents an altered figure that is more problematic. However to label this figure as unquestionably female, fails to answer these questions. Why should it be, in this singular instance, that the sloppy VMs painter has suddenly attained the heights of technical precision? Why should it be, in this particular instance, that the uninformed VMs painter knows exactly what to do?
R.Sale,
I did look into your idea.
If you were positing some connection to the Genoese I'd think it not unreasonable. The period when members of the Fieschi were elected Pope is also not unreasonable if you posit the present ms gained from earlier sources. But these are positions which have to be argued by more substantial reference to historical documents, art history, palaeography and so on.
At present the argument has some fairly obvious flaws: the pattern you call 'papelonny' occurs in many other media, for example, and it is plainly wrong to call a 3rdC mosaic, or an Islamic ceramic pattern "papelonny" when in the first case European heraldry had yet to be invented, and in the second the maker is highly unlikely to have intended any reference to European coats of arms.
So where's the evidence which requires us to say that the pattern on that barrel has any reference to European heraldry, either?
If people don't respond to your idea, it's very likely because you don't explain how you first came to have it - whether it just occurred to you one day, or whether it was something which you concluded after a study of certain historical documents, secondary sources, comparative imagery and so on.
If, among documents of the Fieschi popes, or of the Fieschi family in general, you were to find some very similar imagery to some in the Vms, or some of the same unusual glyphs, that would certainly add weight to your idea.
R.Sale Wrote:I think the first two definitions are appropriate. Although heraldry in the VMs is quite limited, there are both armorial and ecclesiastical examples. The question I have asked of the ninja community is *why* heraldry is dismissed as an investigative possibility.
R.Sale, thank you for your reply. What aspect of heraldry would you investigate, and where would it lead you?