The Voynich Ninja

Focus: Rosette detail left path
 
Some details on the Rosette page could make the difference. Currently i want to draw attention to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

[attachment=774]

 It is the left “road” on the page and the letter composition, and it has a very special name:



ddssShx

ddssShx




What we see here is a literal road, a path, a vein, a stump, or has it a symbolic meaning?
It is clear that it shows a connection between 2 parts of the page. 
If we know, or can guess those parts, can we tell what this path is?

 
There are 3 labels on that “path”.
One on top, this one in the middle, and on the bottom.
 
     ytedar 
  ddssShx
daldas
 
The position and the distance of the 3 words, shows us that the words do not belong to each other and do not form one sentence,
but must be used on itself, as labels.
 
Some ideas:   corridor north, corridor south. Or names, China, Pakistan. Or purification of the mind,  purification of the body.
Is it a path over water, or the path to heaven or hell ?
 
Then on the left and right of the path there are also two more labels:
 
soiindy
ofardy
 
 
In total we now have:
 
                       ytedar 
soiindy   ddssShx           ofardy
                   daldas
 
 
Searching for matching occurrences gives:
 
ytedar:  3 matches, in f73v, f85r2 and f104v.
soiindy:   none
ddssShx: none (dd occurs 25 times, ss occurs 33 times, x 44 times)
ofardy: none (fard: none, far:  3 matches, in f1r, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  textpage  and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. herbal)
daldas: none (dalda: none, alda: none,  daldar: none, aldar: 3 matches, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. textpage, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. star textpage and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. herbal)
 

Further more, the letter x occurs 44 times in total, and in 7 words in the Rosette !
xar
xasashe
xoltedy
xdar
soshxor
dxar
  

There are three options for dd ss sh x, it is a label or it is a number, or is it both.

If   dd ss Sh x  would stand for a name, then dd ss  must have a vowel in d or s at least.

Then it could stand for a word with this pattern (v=vowel, c=consonant)

d-d- ss 
cvcv cc

or
-d-d ss
vcvc cc 

... or all the combination where  -d or d- of -s or s- represent vc or cv.

Are there such words, where the last letter of the word is a low frequent letter (such as x, y, z) ?

The illustrator seems to have used distinct "ornamental" patterns for certain terrestrial phenomena, such as mountains, water, wind etc. (By the way, it would be quite useful to create a "catalogue" of these ornaments for an easy reference).

So in the first place we need to ascertain what these particular ornaments (on either side of the "road") are meant to represent in general. Then, guided by the alleged placement of continents on this alleged map, we can derive the continents in question. And then we can make conclusions about specificity of these very instances of this ornamental pattern.

If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that my post and question,

>>Are there such words, where the last letter of the word is a low frequent letter (such as x, y, z) ?

is not valid, because 

>>in the first place we need to ascertain what these particular ornaments are meant to represent in general. 
>>And then we can make conclusions about specificity of these very instances of this ornamental pattern.

Anton, Davidsch,

What you call 'ornaments' fall into particular classes, as I explained when doing the analysis.  The 'ornament' for the East roundel is determined by the fact that it does represent East, and since it was not designed for the Latin world, it represents that quarter by the conventions  legible to people of that region.  This is one of the most interesting aspects of the map - that each of the quarters is represented using conventions of that part of the maker's world.  This is why the west roundel and its content is so easily read in the conventions which were used within the Mediterranean, and to which we are heirs.  So it 'makes sense' to us.  More or less.  The 'X' on the main building won't mean to most readers what it meant to the original designer.

Back to the section... the striated part describes the sort of terrain.  I've identified some of the patterns, such as those meaning sand or gibber desert (see the section between south and west), and sand-with-water (included in a detail in the northern roundel which is an image of the Mediterranean).. and so on.

The words inscribed on that broad high road, I'd predict are either place-names or things like sites where people had to pay taxes en route, or who controlled each section of a given route.

I think the origin of this map lies in the activities of the Hellenistic geographers and that is an example of what Piri Rei's called a jafariye made in the days of Alexander.  Modern western scholars constantly assume he meant something gained from Ptolemy but I think Reis knew what he was talking about.  There's no doubt such works existed.

But the thing about the patterns is that some are conventional, some are really technical like the ones representing terrain-types, and some might be called no more than ornament.  Function is the key.

Best of luck to you both

Hm, if you consider Rosette = abc, def, ghi, I discovered that the middle (e) of the Rosette is about the heaven or paradise and f  the same or something similar and strangely the * in the c region are representing real stars.  We can focus on the images, but my main interest lies on that very special word  "ddssShx".
There is no other word in the VMS with this, or any other similar pattern. 

(19-10-2016, 12:40 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that my post and question,

>>Are there such words, where the last letter of the word is a low frequent letter (such as x, y, z) ?

is not valid, because 

>>in the first place we need to ascertain what these particular ornaments are meant to represent in general. 
>>And then we can make conclusions about specificity of these very instances of this ornamental pattern.

A question is a question, it can't be valid or invalid, it either has an answer or has not.

I'm actually saying that the most productive way (in my opinion) is not throwing ideas (whether it's corridors, names, purification etc...) in at once, but approaching the context in a systematic manner, building more specific guesses upon more general guesses.


@ Diane:

Actually I meant that "ornaments" are used not only within the Rosettes folio, but also in other folios.

Please, anyone with ideas what it CAN be, i would like to hear that.  Any idea, please is welcome.

It might provide the clue for the presented labeltext .

(13-10-2016, 02:45 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Focus: Rosette detail left path
 
Some details on the Rosette page could make the difference. Currently i want to draw attention to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.



 It is the left “road” on the page and the letter composition, and it has a very special name:



ddssShx

ddssShx




What we see here is a literal road, a path, a vein, a stump, or has it a symbolic meaning?
It is clear that it shows a connection between 2 parts of the page. 
If we know, or can guess those parts, can we tell what this path is?

 
There are 3 labels on that “path”.
One on top, this one in the middle, and on the bottom.
 
     ytedar 
  ddssShx
daldas
 
The position and the distance of the 3 words, shows us that the words do not belong to each other and do not form one sentence,
but must be used on itself, as labels.
 
Some ideas:   corridor north, corridor south. Or names, China, Pakistan. Or purification of the mind,  purification of the body.
Is it a path over water, or the path to heaven or hell ?
 
Then on the left and right of the path there are also two more labels:
 
soiindy
ofardy
 
 
In total we now have:
 
                       ytedar 
soiindy   ddssShx           ofardy
                   daldas
 
 
Searching for matching occurrences gives:
 
ytedar:  3 matches, in f73v, f85r2 and f104v.
soiindy:   none
ddssShx: none (dd occurs 25 times, ss occurs 33 times, x 44 times)
ofardy: none (fard: none, far:  3 matches, in f1r, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  textpage  and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. herbal)
daldas: none (dalda: none, alda: none,  daldar: none, aldar: 3 matches, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. textpage, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. star textpage and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. herbal)
 

Further more, the letter x occurs 44 times in total, and in 7 words in the Rosette !
xar
xasashe
xoltedy
xdar
soshxor
dxar
  

There are three options for dd ss sh x, it is a label or it is a number, or is it both.

If   dd ss Sh x  would stand for a name, then dd ss  must have a vowel in d or s at least.

Then it could stand for a word with this pattern (v=vowel, c=consonant)

d-d- ss 
cvcv cc

or
-d-d ss
vcvc cc 

... or all the combination where  -d or d- of -s or s- represent vc or cv.

Are there such words, where the last letter of the word is a low frequent letter (such as x, y, z) ?

the meaning tranlsate in english is :


1. left to be examinated, tested

2.1 middle up to affect (to influence or alter)

2.2 middle center to tighten without leter "x"

2.3 middle down all caugh

3. right to overlap, to append

Can  you help , sending me some position of leter "x" in manuscript ? to make my own study?  : about this leter 

Anton,

For what it's worth, I would not recommend comparing use of design motifs indifferently across the manuscript; the assumption of homogeneity isn't well supported by the internal evidence, and the fact that the manuscript appears to have been made in fifteenth century Europe doesn't justify our supposing the content is an homogenous product of that time or region.

The critical issues here are those rarely considered at all: cause-and-effect, and the question of significance.

Where that detail from the map which shows a high road between the East and South-East corners employs a striation-pattern as a way to describe a solid surface set above one formed of hard sand or pise (a common material for buildings in that region), another section could use the same pattern with no intention to have it any more than a bit of decoration.  Comparing the two, and assuming them equal would be a false equivalence.  In fact, I could show the same pattern used on everything from Asian metalwork, to ancient pottery, to twelfth-century English manuscript art, but as always what we have to do is understand the intention of the persons who first made a given image, and since the different sections (botanical, bathy- etc.) show clear evidence of having come from distinctly different sources, to suppose the intention the same across all is likely to be misleading.


Davidsch
If you feel up to it, I should think you might do well to begin collecting information from itineraries, geographies and histories of the road between, say, Chorasan and the region of the Persian-Gulf/Indian Ocean.

That's the section which you show in that detail. I realise that the new Beinecke foliation is awfully clunky "folio 85v and 86r" and that the older one was more apt and elegant (fol.86v), but better than using the meaningless "rosettes folio" which means nothing at all, since there isn't a single "rosette" strictly speaking anywhere on the map.  Those canopy-like forms are versions of the wind-wheel or star-wheel, not ornamental rosettes.  The thing is a map, and those wheels are not unknown in various forms on other maps.  They helped the traveller literally get his bearings.

D.

Diane:

Well, seeing the exact same ornament pattern in different parts of the manuscript brings homogeneity as a natural assumption, in my opinion. At least as a working hypothesis it's worth following to see where it leads.