The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: On plain texts and ciphers (a thought experiment)
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Here's the thing: it doesn't really matter whether the Voynich script was invented completely new or adapted from an existing script. Plenty of people with the appropriate knowledge have looked at the script and nobody has identified it. That means it cannot be read using outside knowledge. We can only read it using the text itself as a guide. That's the lesson we take away from this fact, and everything else is speculation.

Nor does it really matter whether a culture of writing in this script once existed or not. We don't have any other texts written in this script so we must consider it unique. We can guess that the scribe had some practice writing the forms of the glyphs, but that can witness only individual use. Contrarily, we can see that the text subtly changes over time (Currier A and B), so we might guess that writing conventions were not settled. None of this means that other texts did or did not once exist, only that they don't now. Without being able to settle the question either way there's not much we can learn from it.

The question that people are trying to address is whether any of this means that the underlying language is likely to be common or exotic. The problem is that the circumstances of the script can't answer that question. We can construct various scenarios to explain why an unidentified script exists and why the text is unique. But the script itself is the fact needing to be explained here and not the thing doing the explaining. Evidence needs to come from elsewhere.

On a related note, as we're discussing the origin of a unique and unidentified script, I'll share an old theory (which I may have already spoken about). I've always tried to keep alive in my mind at least two different potential solutions at any one time. The goal being to acknowledge that both can explain some of the facts though one of them must be wrong. It's like a foil: unless one theories is miles better than the other, it's likely that I haven't yet solved it.

Anyway, one of these theories used to be that the underlying language was Maltese. This worked quite well. It was different in structure from most European languages so could have fitted the text more realistically. Yet it was embedded in European culture so that the imagery and structure of the manuscript needed little explaining. The manuscript looked like a product from, say, northern Italy simply because the author was in direct contact with that culture.

The theory behind the script was also wonderfully plausible. Maltese was an unwritten language in 1400, though it is likely people were experimenting with literacy at the time as the first written record is from 1436. It may have been that the Maltese elite, literate in Italian and Latin, knew that the Maltese language was different and doubted that it could be written in the Roman script. Thus somebody invented the script we see today, which incorporated specific features unique to the needs of Maltese, but with a vague influence from the Roman script the inventor already knew.

Maybe the script never really worked any better than attempts to write Maltese with the Roman script so the experiment was abandoned. Maybe the inventor believed in it and worked on longer examples to convince others. Maybe it was thought safer not to write religious texts cryptically.

It's all speculation. It's easy to come up with this kind of theory which is plausible but unprovable. Ultimately it doesn't add to our knowledge.
Quote: Most importantly, it has been suggested (Bax, Emma?) that Voynichese script was a project that didn't really take off well. It seems very possible to me that they first tried to get a feel for the script on a scientific text they had handy, rather than go for a bible right away. In this sense, the VM script would be the preparation for a language's own script, rather than a fully blossoming one.

Yes, I also thought about that option - kinda unfortunate fellow of Glagolitic. That does not look plausible to me. What does it mean to get a feel of the script? It means trying writing in it and then reading it and comrehending the contents, this being tested on a set of people. A commonplace document would be used for that purpose - such as would be familiar to and understood by others, not some specific knowledge others probably would not understand even in their native tongue.

What's also worth noting is that any scientific discourse in a language incapable of writing is hardly possible. Let's say a language has no alphabet, but I think what naturally follows out of that is that the respective people would have no "science". Unless, of course, the educated folks thereof are educated in some other language (like e.g. ancient Abkhazians were educated in Greek) - then they will be able to convey scientific discourse in Greek. But they will fail to translate this discourse in writing immediately after inventing the script for their native tongue - just because it is devoid of appropriate vocabulary. Decades and maybe centuries would be needed for that - during which period of time writings in the native tongue would develop, in turn stimulating development of local education and philosophy/science (not without extensive borrowing from more developed cultures, of course). For an example, if I'm not mistaken, the first herbal in Cyrillic is dated to XVI (!) century - although, of course, it was mainly the devastating invasion of Mongols what substantially delayed cultural progress in the Eastern Europe.

Quote:As Sam brought up in our discussion, certain areas throughout history have seen all books destroyed during tumultuous times.

Putting forward such argument is equal to saying that the supposed culture was swept out in its entirety - because writing is of course not limited to books. We are not speaking of destroying an area, we are effectively speaking about destroying a culture here. This may be convincing for something as old as a couple millenia BC (say, the Maykop stone), but, I'm afraid, not for XV century AD. That only one material artefact of a culture once  intervened by European missionaries (those who carried Latin shorthand there) survives, and this with no trace in any European written source - I'd say for post-Gutenberg Europe that's impossible.

Much, much more probable is that the VMS is product of an individual design, not an artefact of an extinct culture.

Quote:Here's the thing: it doesn't really matter whether the Voynich script was invented completely new or adapted from an existing script. Plenty of people with the appropriate knowledge have looked at the script and nobody has identified it. That means it cannot be read using outside knowledge.

Well, it can be approached by adding hypotheses and testing them, that's what people are doing. That's just another avenue of solving the task, as opposed to trying to understand the script on its own. Actually, I have no problems with that, I don't want to say to anyone "don't do this or don't do that", I just put forth some reasoning of that some class of hypotheses doesn't look plausible from the beginning, so it might be in vain to bother testing individual hypotheses on their own.

As a sidenote, there is another interesting question here. Suppose we agree that the script is derived from the Latin shorthand (or what's the appropriate word). Then how it turned out that educated people of XVII century who beyond doubt were better familiar with the contemporary writing practice than we are - how would they even assume that this may be something coptic?! Yes, they did not have carbon dating (neither other techniques of dating), but would not the common shapes manifest themselves to them immediately?
(01-06-2018, 09:39 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:Here's the thing: it doesn't really matter whether the Voynich script was invented completely new or adapted from an existing script. Plenty of people with the appropriate knowledge have looked at the script and nobody has identified it. That means it cannot be read using outside knowledge.

Well, it can be approached by adding hypotheses and testing them, that's what people are doing. That's just another avenue of solving the task, as opposed to trying to understand the script on its own. Actually, I have no problems with that, I don't want to say to anyone "don't do this or don't do that", I just put forth some reasoning of that some class of  hypotheses doesn't look plausible from the beginning, so it might be in vain to bother testing individual hypotheses on their own.

There's a risk of falling into speculation. The question of "do we know what it is?" has a fairly simple answer: no. The more complicated question of "can we build a plausible narrative of what it is?" has the worrying answer: yes, but we've no way to assess its truth.

I really want us, as researchers, to get away from the idea of identifying the script. If it's not obvious after a hundred years then any answer now will be too uncertain to be useful. We've found a limit of knowledge outside the text and so our answers must come from inside the text.
I guess it's not much use, but i'm telling you now for the last time that the manuscript is from the 15th century (C14) and the script is a Gothic script of the 15th century and the rest of the manuscript also fits there, one of the consequences is that the language is probably  Latin with  some German  and as long as you won't accept this you won't make any progress
(02-06-2018, 08:21 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.and the rest of the manuscript also fits there,

I agree for the beginning of your assertion but not for the pagination.
For me, pagination was done in the middle of 16th century.
(02-06-2018, 08:21 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess it's not much use, but i'm telling you now for the last time that the manuscript is from the 15th century (C14) and the script is a Gothic script of the 15th century and the rest of the manuscript also fits there, one of the consequences is that the language is probably  Latin with  some German  and as long as you won't accept this you won't make any progress

Can you read it?
(02-06-2018, 10:28 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(02-06-2018, 08:21 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess it's not much use, but i'm telling you now for the last time that the manuscript is from the 15th century (C14) and the script is a Gothic script of the 15th century and the rest of the manuscript also fits there, one of the consequences is that the language is probably  Latin with  some German  and as long as you won't accept this you won't make any progress

Can you read it?

Yes, of course,  at least most of it, there are some things I am not sure, everybody can who has some basic knowleddge of Latin palaeography, Only it is so highly abbreviated, that I dont understand great parts of it
(03-06-2018, 06:48 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(02-06-2018, 10:28 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(02-06-2018, 08:21 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess it's not much use, but i'm telling you now for the last time that the manuscript is from the 15th century (C14) and the script is a Gothic script of the 15th century and the rest of the manuscript also fits there, one of the consequences is that the language is probably  Latin with  some German  and as long as you won't accept this you won't make any progress

Can you read it?

Yes, of course,  at least most of it, there are some things I am not sure, everybody can who has some basic knowleddge of Latin palaeography, Only it is so highly abbreviated, that I dont understand great parts of it

Hi Helmut,
adding to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but from a different angle than entropy, there are other considerations that suggest something else than abbreviated Latin. The following are only examples.

In Voynichese EVA, only 8 characters appear frequently in the word final position: (y r n l s m o d). This figure does not change much if you use a different transcription system: Jacques Guy only found 6 frequent word ending characters (Table 2 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., based on Bennett's transcription system).  Similar numbers can be observed with unabbreviated Latin texts: the common endings are -s, -m, -e, -t, -a, -i, -r, -o. See also the Mattioli suffixes graph You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
In a Latin abbreviated text, there are many more possible endings. In this tiny You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. fragment (less than 40 words) there are 14 different word endings: about the double of what we averagely see in 100 Voynichese words!
[attachment=2159]

So, the limited number of endings rules out abbreviated Latin but seems compatible with the unabbreviated language. If we look slightly deeper into the histograms, it is clear that also unabbreviated Latin does not work. Voynichese most common ending -y occurs about 40% of the times: almost half of the words have the same ending. Even in unabbreviated Latin, the most frequent ending character (-s) is only slightly more frequent than 20%. In abbreviated Latin, the figure will be even smaller (e.g. -us and -es will be written differently, -9 and -es). I believe it is totally impossible to think of a long Latin text in which 40% of the words have the same ending.

Another, unrelated element, which I find strongly suggestive of something different from Latin and most European languages, is the high number of reduplicated words: i.e. words which are repeated identically two (and sometimes more) times consecutively. In the VMS, reduplication occurs more than once every 100 words (more than once per page, on the average). Reduplication is a well known linguistic phenomenon and we know that languages with similar or even higher reduplication rates exist, but not among the main European languages. In my eyes, this excludes both "direct phonetic" and abbreviated Latin, and also all Latin, Greek, Italian, French, German, English ciphers which map identical sequences of characters into identical sequences of sounds.
I completely agree with a thing Emma has said: the answer must come from inside the text.

   There has been a lot of speculation. The answer is within the Voynich. Why the glyph 9 is an (y) in EVA or another letter in any alphabet? Simply, it could be the number 9. I think is the number 9 and indicates a  position in the celestial sphere. You can think of other theory, but all can see the number 9
MarcoP (and Anton),

thank you for your feedback, but as one of our secretaries of state said, I am not convinced.To tell the truth, it contradicts most of the things I know about medieval Latin scientific manuscripts and I don't see what else the Voynich could be. But perhaps I am really wrong and the Voynich is something totally out of the way, I'ii do some more thinking and checking things up
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