The Voynich Ninja

(26-08-2016, 01:10 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, I agree that there is a connection. also note the "knob" on top of the beak, which may have helped to reinterpret the shape of the head. 

Additionally, if you remove the second eye of the "Leo", suddenly you notice how the original eye is very similar to that of the griffin's, with the eyelashes (?) on either side, and a very similar positioning. It somehow makes the "beak" connection much easier to see as well. It also makes him a lot angrier

Now while this is a great find, it has admittedly complicated my conception for how this image was created.

Here are the heads from both mosaics along with the VMS image:



Neither head shape is a perfect match for the VMS image.  Arguably it's intermediate between the two, but closer to the leopard.  The ears on the griffin are definitely a better match for the VMS animal.

The lack of the wings and presence of the tree still point toward the leopard image.

So apparently we have a griffin-headed leopard with a tree-tail now?

I won't have time this weekend, but it would be interesting to check other examples of griffins, to see if any were depicted with a similar tree behind them. It is possible, since they could clearly be seen as a feline-type creature.

Either way, the unifying element appears to be a slight reinterpretation of elements. A beak becomes a weird tongue, a tree becomes a weird tail. And the result becomes, somehow, something that "at first sight if you squint a bit" can pass as part of a zodiac-like series.

Sorry to differ, guys, but I rather think the curator was talking stylistics.  It would be automatic. It is stylistic similarities which are key indicators to the place and time an image belongs.

Syria of the 5th-6th century (and earlier) produces a whole lot of mosaics, and a whole lot of imagery which displays similar characteristics to imagery in the VMS calendar.

I mean, that is where and when we find the earliest image of a standing archer instead of a centaur (I've written about this and illustrated the Beth Alpha zodiac, which is one of the oldest examples).

I like the Delian 'panther' because it has the most in common with the Vms image, but also because people who came there came from all over the Greek speaking world, and in one Greco-Buddhist centre in early Afghanistan we have the maxims of Delphi carved in Carian script. (sorry, that's probably tmi).

I'll stop here - but let me say what a pleasure it is to see this happening - the study opening up to what the manuscript actually contains. And Hellenistic imagery (as I've explained and shown since 2010) forms the oldest chronological stratum in this manuscript.

It is my opinion that if those who weren't irrationally attached to a theory had at least refrained from ad.hominem campaigns, we might have moved on this much sooner.

D

No doubt, the history of the medieval iconography and art is interesting.
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As they say, find 10 differences:
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Lions:






The 3 Plantagenet lions


Tiger:

Thanks Searcher, that's quite interesting - both the reference and the illustrations, in particular the blue/grey lion mostly without manes, and with its tail up. That's the second figure in your post and I couldn't figure out from which source / MS it comes.

(26-08-2016, 08:47 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks Searcher, that's quite interesting - both the reference and the illustrations, in particular the blue/grey lion mostly without manes, and with its tail up. That's the second figure in your post and I couldn't figure out from which source / MS it comes.

All the images are from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The second image is from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., C 1300+, Folio 14r
"Three lions. The lion on its back may be a dead cub, with the lion at the left being its father breathing or roaring life into it."

---

A couple more quite interesting examples:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Trogir Cathedral, Croatia:


Diocletian's Palace, the Cathedral of St Doimus, lion sculpture, Croatia:

Yeah I really don't think this griffin is relevant in any way to the stylistics of the VMS Leo. I'm hard pressed to see a resemblance between the beak and outstretched tongue. There are no other similarities as far as I can tell.

I would like to stress the following:

- When I asked the curator about the VM feline, I did not "steer" her answer towards this result. I did not mention the area nor time of this mosaic.
- She did not study the MS elaborately. This was a spontaneous association based on her first observation of the VM feline. 
- She did not propose a complete stylistic match between both items, but still found the stylistic similarities relevant.
- She did not propose that the VM feline was actually based on griffin images, and did not mention the tongue resembling the beak. Her proposing this image was merely based on stylistics, not content matter. However, Sam and I, being more acquainted with the way the VM handles imagery, do not exclude the possibility of a subject link as well. But once again, the curator was just talking stylistics.



I still think Sam's Qasr mosaic offers the best visual parallel for the subject matter. The very widespread "tree behind animal" motif is very likely to have caused the current appearance of the "tail".

However, when it comes to mere stylistics, the griffin mosaic comes very close to the VM. Either way, a lot closer than any real heraldic Leo I have seen.

Apart from all that, I can't understand how you are "hard pressed to see a resemblance between the beak and outstretched tongue". They look the same and would need very little adjustment to be exactly the same.... Just compare it to the tongues on standard Leos and you'll see how similar they are.

As a final note, it is important to know that Diane has written about both the relevance of the "tree behind animal" motif and the relevance of Syrian art in analyzing the month emblems stylistics. This is a very important instance of confirmation, since the curator was not aware of anyone having mentioned Syria before in this context.

Hello Searcher,

I think the line of thought might have got a bit distracted.  What we were doing were finding examples of creatures which resemble the feline in the manuscript.  Everyone has supposed it was meant for a lion, but it doesn't have the characteristics of a lion, so Sam G. and Koen are doing what I've also done - trying not to look for examples of what we suppose it "should be" in sources where we think it "should be" but actually looking for images that exactly match the Voynich creature's appearance.

No mane, spotted hide, round ears... but of course you don't need me to write the shopping list for you.

Interestingly, the animal with the spotted hide that you included is not a lion but was called a "panther" too - just as Dionysius' animal was that we've been talking about.

I know that because in medieval bestiaries, the story went that although the 'panther' was the fastest of animals, if it saw a glass ball and its own reflection in it, it would think the reflection one of its cubs, and stop chasing you.

So actually you did find a sort of "panther" as a near match, just as we have done.

Cheers.

(29-08-2016, 09:59 AM)Koen Gh Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I still think Sam's Qasr mosaic offers the best visual parallel for the subject matter.

This will of course always be a matter of taste:

[attachment=502]

(29-08-2016, 09:59 AM)Koen Gh Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The very widespread "tree behind animal" motif is very likely to have caused the current appearance of the "tail".

This has been proposed, but to say that this is "very likely" requires some more supporting evidence.
It would have been different if there was just this one instance of a Leo with a tail going forward between its legs, and up.
Then, one could argue that this was a consequence of a mis-interpretation. Such things happened.

However, this is equally a common motif. It can be seen in manuscripts produced before, contemporary with or after the
Voynich MS.
There are even cases with the tail going this way *and* a tree in the background.

The two are independent motifs and "very likely" cannot be justified.