The Voynich Ninja

(27-09-2026, 10:21 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am not clear on what you are calling fountains.  I think you are talking about the arched or curved lines in the four corners of the page.

f85r2_f86v4_f86v6

I have no idea what they are.  They are a little bit blue.  They seem to originate from the deep blue around the sun in the center.  They go out and arch over and then go back inside the outer circle of words.  I guess "fountains" is as good a name for them as any.

The fountain in the upper right goes in the opposite direction (Clockwise) of the other three (Counterclockwise).  Is there significance to this or did they just want more space for text for the person holding the spherical vial (or whatever it is)?  Maybe they are just decoration and have no symbolic meaning.  I don't remember seeing anything like them anywhere else in the manuscript.  Something else to add to the mystery.

The blue around the sun is a mystery.  Why would the sun be in water?  Or, is the blue supposed to be sky (air) and not water?  Fountains of air?

Having the sun in the center of f85r2 and the moon in the center of f86v4 makes me think the two pages are a pair of opposites -- but of what?  Day/Night, Light/Dark, Life/Death, Youth/Age, Heaven/Hell?

The moon page also has four figures holding mysterious objects -- including one that looks like a spherical vial.

If the creators of the Voynich Manuscript were copying from other sources, they may not have copied exactly as presented in the originals.  They may have copied different elements to craft their own story.

Early Greek cosmography has something like this about the sun. 


In the works of Homer and Hesiod, the Earth was viewed as a flat disc encircled by Oceanus (Okeanos) which was envisioned not as an open sea, but as a massive, continuous freshwater cosmic river. 


The ancient Greeks believed that the sun god, Helios, literally dipped into the waters of Oceanus at the end of the day. In the Iliad (8.485), Homer writes: "And now the shining light of the sun was dipped in the Okeanos trailing black night across the grain-giving land."

They also believed the same about nearly all other celestial objects (aside from the Ursa Major constellation). Some more examples:

Homer, Iliad 7. 422 ff :
"Now Helios (the Sun) of a new day struck on the ploughlands, rising out of the quiet water and the deep stream of Okeanos to climb the sky."

Homer, Iliad 8. 485 ff :
"And now the shining light of the sun (helios) was dipped in the Okeanos trailing black night (nyx) across the grain-giving land."

Homer, Iliad 5. 10 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"The star of the waning summer [Seirios (Sirius) the Dog-Star] who beyond all stars rises bathed in Okeanos (the Ocean-Stream) to glitter with brilliance."

Homer, Iliad 18. 485 ff :
"the Bear, that men call also the Wain, that circleth ever in her place, and watcheth Orion [The constellations Ursa Major and Minor] which alone among constellations has no share in the baths of Okeanos." [N.B. The Ursa constellations revolve around the north pole and do not set below the horizon.]

Homeric Hymn 32 to Selene :
"Bright Selene (the Moon) . . . bathed her lovely body in the waters of Okeanos

Nordic/Scandinavian cosmology also has a similar idea. A good article on this: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-09-2026, 01:14 AM)Hasnain Raza Rajpar al-Sindi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The ancient Greeks believed that the sun god, Helios, literally dipped into the waters of Oceanus at the end of the day.

It doesn't look like the sun is setting and rising in f85r2.  It looks like it is fixed in the center.  I think it is more spiritual than astronomical.

(27-09-2026, 10:21 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have no idea what they are.  They are a little bit blue.  ... The blue around the sun is a mystery.  Why would the sun be in water?  Or, is the blue supposed to be sky (air) and not water?

Anyone who is analyzing the VMS illustrations should consider it likely (at least) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.,without much regard for the actual  meaning of the figures  

There are several bits of evidence that support this theory (even if they fall short of proof), and no real evidence or argument indicating that they were original -- that is, that the color paints were applied shortly after the outlines were drawn, or under supervision of the original Author.

It is possible however that the light translucent yellow paint used in the nymphs' hair, stars, and many other details is original.  It may have been a wash made with diluted text ink (like we see in Taccola's notebook).

All the best, --stolfi

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(27-09-2026, 10:21 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am not clear on what you are calling fountains.  I think you are talking about the arched or curved lines in the four corners of the page.

f85r2_f86v4_f86v6

I have no idea what they are.  They are a little bit blue.  They seem to originate from the deep blue around the sun in the center.  They go out and arch over and then go back inside the outer circle of words.  I guess "fountains" is as good a name for them as any.

I agree with your analysis, but I got the idea of fountains too, from the swirly middle around the sun, and what seems like geisers coming from what looks like breaks in the concrete fountain seem from above? (although I agree that it would be a little weird for the people to be then lying on the ground, so maybe it is floating in space like a little planet?) Likely it is something more philosophical in nature than really there?

Quote:The fountain in the upper right goes in the opposite direction (Clockwise) of the other three (Counterclockwise).  Is there significance to this or did they just want more space for text for the person holding the spherical vial (or whatever it is)?  Maybe they are just decoration and have no symbolic meaning.  I don't remember seeing anything like them anywhere else in the manuscript.  Something else to add to the mystery.

I agree with you there too. I wish we could read what is written in each space! Maybe one affects the next, but only to a point

Quote:The blue around the sun is a mystery.  Why would the sun be in water?  Or, is the blue supposed to be sky (air) and not water?  Fountains of air?

I don't know, it could be a reflection in the water if we are looking at it from above. I think it would be weird to be swirly sky or air. Water seems to make the most sense. 
But then the moon next to it is surrounded by people showing vegetables. I would more expect the sun to be involved there.

Quote:Having the sun in the center of f85r2 and the moon in the center of f86v4 makes me think the two pages are a pair of opposites -- but of what?  Day/Night, Light/Dark, Life/Death, Youth/Age, Heaven/Hell?

Yes, usually there would be some kind of commonality, it doesn't seem to be so here. Unless it is water vs land? But again I would think the moon to be better with the water, since it has to do with tides and such, although they probably didn't know that then. But I think the sun has more to do with vegetables than the moon, too.

Quote:The moon page also has four figures holding mysterious objects -- including one that looks like a spherical vial.

I thought that was an onion or a rutabaga or something, i don't see a top on it? it is just spherical to me, doesn't speak vial to me.

Quote:If the creators of the Voynich Manuscript were copying from other sources, they may not have copied exactly as presented in the originals.  They may have copied different elements to craft their own story.

Yes that is completely possible. They may even want it to look like something common at the time but to tell a completely different story with it, just so we don't "get" it. It seems to me like this is a book of secrets that was only meant to be read by those who knew the system of the writing.

(28-09-2026, 01:14 AM)Hasnain Raza Rajpar al-Sindi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The ancient Greeks believed that the sun god, Helios, literally dipped into the waters of Oceanus at the end of the day. In the Iliad (8.485), Homer writes: "And now the shining light of the sun was dipped in the Okeanos trailing black night across the grain-giving land."

Interesting, that goes more with the moon example to me than the one with the sun. But maybe it is backwards, because if the sun is in the waters, then it is night, yes? so the moon being in the one with " the grain-giving land" means it is actually day, so that makes more sense now, seems silly to show off your vegetables to the moon. Still, for the one with the sun, what are the people trying to act out, especially if it is night time, and what is with the gushing fountains?

I have some new ideas about f85r2 and f86v4.  They are just ideas.  I'm not saying carve them in stone.  This forum is supposed to be a place where people share ideas so I'm sharing my ideas.

f85r2 – Everyone should live a Righteous life.  Young or old, rich or poor.  Everyone should live in the light of Righteousness.

f86v4 – People who live an Unrighteous life will end up lost in darkness.  (Kind of Hell Lite.)  It doesn't matter if they are rich or poor, people who live an Unrighteous life will be lost.  Material wealth will not save them.

To me this seems like the kind of message that would go on the back of the Rosettes page that I think is Heaven in the center and showing the light of God/Heaven powering the physical universe.

(27-09-2026, 04:54 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have to note that a glance at this page does not appear to differentiate the age of anyone there other than the use of a cane for what seems to be a female character

Indeed, in that German printed book that was posted somewhere, the woman does not seem to be very old; at most middle-aged.  And she is not leaning on the "staff", but holding it by the stem.  And she is standing besides a fireplace.  Which (as I mentioned a few posts back) makes me think that the "staff" is actually a light hatchet with long handle, suitable for chopping dead branches from trees for use as firewood, and the "rosary" is a light chain that would be used to tie those branches and drag them home.  

The allegory then would be that in the "autumn of life" one must collect and save resources to sustain oneself during the coming "winter of life".  I think this makes more sense than the interpretation that in the autumn of life one needs a staff and one becomes more religious or whatever.

Quote:I never thought of the container to be one of pee. It is not a flask. It seems more like a Pilgrim bottle. If it was supposed to be a flask of pee, why not draw it like all other such flasks are drawn. Instead it has a tiny opening with a stopper.

The theory is that the Scribe copied that figure from a book like those shown by Koen and others, where one of the figures is a doctor in the characteristic pose of examining a urine sample flask (of clear smooth glass, with funnel-shaped neck and open top).  But he understood neither the figure nor the allegory, so in his copy he drew a flask of precious liquid -- elixir, perfume, sacred oil ...

All the best, --stolfi