The Voynich Ninja

(26-08-2016, 10:07 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.They hide their knowledge and transcriptions on very well known manuscripts are guarded as if it is gold.

On the other hand they write that such manuscript are the heritage of "their country and their people", and yet, they hide the contents from them.
It makes me angry and disappointed. But i've found this same behavior in almost every country in Europe.

Hi David, I think this point of view is not correct and even dangerous. It is not "us" (the good bloggers and amateurs) against "them" (the evil academic scholars). Academic institutions have made a great number of manuscripts digitally available. Transcriptions require a lot of work (as you know) so it is not unreasonable to guard them as gold. But of course a transcription that is not published is worthless: usually they are published in books. 

I don't follow your argument about "their country and their people".

I am sorry for your anger and disappointment, but also the world of bloggers and amateurs seems to me to produce a good deal of disappointing statements.

Hi Davidsch,

The manuscript expert I was referring to is actually just that, an expert of handwriting (paleography) found in medieval manuscripts. I picked her because she seemed to have the background in education, experience and focus of studies that suited my needs. It turns out that she already had a knowledge of the VMS and an interest in it which made believing her statement about the handwriting in the VMS to be true much easier.

I have no expertise in the field.

I can utilize her skills, educaton and training in the field and rely on her judgment or I can learn the basics of the science, apply the techniques for myself on every piece of period writing in all the libraries and make my own determinations.

I have neither the time nor inclination to learn paleography, so I do rely on the skills, education and training of another.

I do not have the time nor money to visit many libraries hoping to find a sample or samples I think match(es) the handwriting in the text, so I depend on others to look at those libraries' offerings and make that determination.

I understand that you don't appreciate experts and want to do everything yourself.

Considering all the fields covered by Voynich research, it sounds to me like any interesting material found by you will be hard to come by and fraught with extra labor. And will require up to about a dozen advanced degrees worth of self-education in various disciplines to get results that will be accepted by others.

I think I am much lazier than you.

Good luck with your work.

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee

PS.  I hope you are not transferring your own demonstrated reluctance to freely share information (without recompense) on to others, believing they share your reluctance to share information without further evidence of such secretiveness. Or did you tell the story about your own secretive behavior and prior knowledge of the fix for the problem, which changed only when money entered into the picture, for some other reason?


“All the world is made of faith, and trust, and pixie dust.”  ― You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Yes, of course it is not us against them. That is not my point.  

I've been to the institution about two years ago, here in NL, that has the tax money for preservation of our national language and history.
I asked them, why is it so hard to find a digital exact original version of some of the most important people of our nation? Vondel poems and letters from Willem van Oranje ?
Eh, we don't know. She said. Didn't think about the "public" before she replied. She was in charge of the operational affairs concerning such manuscripts.
I was there to propose to make a tool where everybody can see the manuscripts, but also can edit and comment. They did not like somebody else "outside the community" working on such a tool. Also then there first have to be written a project plan, etc. etc. At the end the conclusion was: if I want to improve the manuscript culture, I will have to do the work, myself. Unpaid. So, i just made a simple tool for myself. That's it. 

The nation of a country has a obligation towards his tax-payers to give them their free access to certain information.

Let's take another example. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Scotichronicon. "The National Library of Scotland has called it "probably the most important medieval account of early Scottish history"
or
'He is not a Scot who is not pleased with this book.' So wrote Walter Bower, Abbot of Inchcolm, when he finished this epic history of the Scots - probably the most important mediaeval account of early Scottish history. It provides a strong expression of national identity and offers a window into the world view of mediaeval commentators.

Now try to find a transcription. None. Or the original manuscript. 

I think that if you find something very important, as goverment, you make sure the people will get it.
I am now working for almost 3 months on getting specific manuscript information/access in the UK, Ireland.
Yes, i am very frustated, that this is so difficult. funding: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

For example if you want to know the maximum radiation dose in sievert for a trip to Mars, i think you will find that quicker. It seems NEW information can be found quicker than OLD information.

The heritage of Old English is also very important to the English. 
So, why do i have to pay for access to a dictionary made with tax money, that is constructed around the most important English manuscripts?

Let me not go into other countries, there are countries, institutions,  etc. I gave up getting info. Because there is nobody that answers e-mail, or institutions that do not answer the phone.


In medieval times, they wanted to keep the people stupid. Because that gave them more power.
Where is the citation i found yesterday? 
Ah, here it is: "in most cultures of antiquity, literacy was a guarded secret in that it was an instrument, the key of power."

Perhaps this is still valid in 2016.

Quote:I've been to the institution about two years ago, here in NL, that has the tax money for preservation of our national language and history.
I asked them, why is it so hard to find a digital exact original version of some of the most important people of our nation? Vondel poems and letters from Willem van Oranje ?
Eh, we don't know. She said. Didn't think about the "public" before she replied. She was in charge of the operational affairs concerning such manuscripts.
I was there to propose to make a tool where everybody can see the manuscripts, but also can edit and comment. They did not like somebody else "outside the community" working on such a tool. Also then there first have to be written a project plan, etc. etc. At the end the conclusion was: if I want to improve the manuscript culture, I will have to do the work, myself. Unpaid. So, i just made a simple tool for myself. That's it.

Haha, this seems to be all the same in any country

Quote:In medieval times, they wanted to keep the people stupid. Because that gave them more power.

The concept of power did not change much from the medieval times, and even from the antiquity. But the cases that you describe like staff not answering emails just shows that people are not much interested in their own work. Like they are not enthusiasts.

Enthusiasm is a great thing and much great input to the development of humanity has been done free of charge.

But I'm afraid the thread wanders offtopic a bit

Don,
I'm wondering if the palaeographer misunderstood your question.

The way you explain it, you didn't ask if she could identify the period, or place, where a script like that might have occurred (a fair palaeographic question) but asked if she could - in effect - name the 'author' of the manuscirpt. That's a whole different level of question.

She might have been able to say it looked like a thirteenth-century Spanish hand (or whatever) but have no idea who the scribe might have been.

It's also a pity you offered money first off.  Most scholars and professional experts may help as a kindness, but can be offended if someone approaches them as if they were for hire, or in business.  Unless, of course, she is in business for herself - but in that case the professional sets their own scale of costs.

Still, I think it was great of you to be able to spend not only your time but your cash to get some answers about the important questions. Thank you.