The Voynich Ninja

I always welcome constructive criticism. It is indeed a weakness of my rule-based combinatorics that unique words and hapax legomena are left out. One could probably add additional rules to counteract this, but the more rules you implement, the less of a practical method for the author can be derived from them. However, it does look somewhat “synthetic” (“too good”)—it lacks the “human factor.” Unfortunately, that cannot be replicated (afaik).

(31-05-2026, 01:21 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Unfortunately, that cannot be replicated (afaik).

Well, here's one thing we know for certain. 1 or more humans created this. How and why is up for debate. But if one human was able to create it, then we should be able to replicate it.

(31-05-2026, 04:02 AM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But if one human was able to create it, then we should be able to replicate it.

Depending on what you mean by "replicate", if the process was not entirely algorithmic and also meaningless, there is a good chance that we will never be able to say with certainty we have the method

(31-05-2026, 05:22 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Depending on what you mean by "replicate", if the process was not entirely algorithmic and also meaningless, there is a good chance that we will never be able to say with certainty we have the method

Here's what I mean by replicate.  This is output from my analyzer which is in the repo in the OP.  I had GPT convert the output to BBCode to format it for this forum.  I'll do 3 more posts with other pages and scribes to show this isn't a 1-off occurence.

This shows the source for every word on f1v.  Only 1 word doesn't come from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and only 2 words are edit distance 2.  Note: It only looks at words length >= 3 as length 1 and 2 can be very easily replicated.

Interpretation: This table shows that with the exception of 1 token, all other tokens are a product of copy/mutate from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or a copy/mutate from a previously written token on f1v.

If the "algorithmic method" can be figured out for how they did this, then replication (not duplication) will be possible.  And that's what I'm trying to accomplish with my generator.  So far, I haven't found an exact method and, as Torsten Timm has pointed out, it's likely a very human method which is not going to be duplicated in code easily. 

I've stated this before but I'll keep clarifying: I'm not saying this was the method for creating the Voynich.  I'm simply asking if it could have been the method.  And, if copy/mutate + ledger becomes plausible then then objections that such a process is impossible or even unlikely become much harder to maintain.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. provenance test

Green = ED0 / exact copy after gallows stripping
Blue = ED1 after gallows stripping
Orange = ED2 after gallows stripping
Red = no prior match

Core tokens requiring prior source

f1v token	stripped	f1v loc	parent	parent stripped	source	method
kchsy	chsy	1:1	cphoy	choy	f1r:7:4	ED1
chadaiin	chadaiin	1:2	chodaiin	chodaiin	f1r:16:6	ED1
oltchey	olchey	1:4	okchey	ochey	f1r:25:4	ED1
char	char	1:5	ckhar	char	f1r:2:2	ED0
yteeay	yeeay	2:1	NO PRIOR MATCH	—	—	NO MATCH
ochy	ochy	2:4	cphy	chy	f1r:13:4	ED1
dcho	dcho	2:5	ycho	ycho	f1r:17:1	ED1
lkody	lody	2:6	teody	eody	f1r:10:3	ED1
okodar	oodar	2:7	odar	odar	f1r:7:1	ED1
chody	chody	2:8	cphoy	choy	f1r:7:4	ED1
dksheey	dsheey	3:5	sheky	shey	f1r:3:2	ED2
dal	dal	3:8	dal	dal	f1r:25:5	ED0
chokeo	choeo	4:2	chotey	choey	f1r:27:4	ED1
dair	dair	4:3	dair	dair	f1r:5:1	ED0
sochey	sochey	4:5	sckhey	schey	f1r:12:7	ED1
potoy	ooy	5:1	otol	ool	f1r:21:1	ED1
shol	shol	5:2	shol	shol	f1r:1:5	ED0
cphoal	choal	5:4	cfhol	chol	f1r:9:3	ED1
otoaiin	ooaiin	5:8	ooiin	ooiin	f1r:4:1	ED1
shoshy	shoshy	5:9	shoshy	shoshy	f1r:11:7	ED0
choeee	choeee	7:3	chotey	choey	f1r:27:4	ED2
daiin	daiin	8:11	daiin	daiin	f1r:4:5	ED0
taor	aor	10:1	ar	ar	f1r:1:3	ED1
chotchey	chochey	10:2	chocthy	chochy	f1r:8:4	ED1
chodar	chodar	10:7	ctholdar	choldar	f1r:24:8	ED1

Same-page local derivations

f1v token	stripped	loc	local parent	parent stripped	parent loc	method
cfhar	char	1:6	char	char	1:5	ED0
char	char	2:2	char	char	1:5	ED0
ckhy	chy	3:1	kchsy	chsy	1:1	ED1
ckho	cho	3:2	dcho	dcho	2:5	ED1
ckhy	chy	3:3	ckhy	chy	3:1	ED0
shy	shy	3:4	ckhy	chy	3:1	ED1
cthy	chy	3:6	ckhy	chy	3:1	ED0
kotchody	ochody	3:7	chody	chody	2:8	ED1
dol	dol	4:1	dal	dal	3:8	ED1
dam	dam	4:4	dal	dal	3:8	ED1
chokody	choody	4:6	chody	chody	2:8	ED1
dair	dair	5:3	dair	dair	4:3	ED0
dar	dar	5:5	dal	dal	3:8	ED1
chey	chey	5:6	kchsy	chsy	1:1	ED1
tody	ody	5:7	lkody	lody	2:6	ED1
choky	choy	6:1	kchsy	chsy	1:1	ED0
chol	chol	6:2	ckho	cho	3:2	ED1
cthol	chol	6:3	chol	chol	6:2	ED0
shol	shol	6:4	shol	shol	5:2	ED0
okal	oal	6:5	dal	dal	3:8	ED1
dolchey	dolchey	6:6	oltchey	olchey	1:4	ED1
chodo	chodo	6:7	chody	chody	2:8	ED1
lol	lol	6:8	dol	dol	4:1	ED1
chy	chy	6:9	ckhy	chy	3:1	ED0
cthy	chy	6:10	ckhy	chy	3:1	ED0
cheol	cheol	7:4	chol	chol	6:2	ED1
dol	dol	7:5	dol	dol	4:1	ED0
cthey	chey	7:6	chey	chey	5:6	ED0
ykol	yol	7:7	dol	dol	4:1	ED1
dol	dol	7:8	dol	dol	4:1	ED0
dolo	dolo	7:9	dol	dol	4:1	ED1
ykol	yol	7:10	ykol	yol	7:7	ED0
okol	ool	8:1	dol	dol	4:1	ED1
shol	shol	8:2	shol	shol	5:2	ED0
kol	ol	8:3	dol	dol	4:1	ED1
kechy	echy	8:4	ochy	ochy	2:4	ED1
chol	chol	8:5	chol	chol	6:2	ED0
chol	chol	8:7	chol	chol	6:2	ED0
cthol	chol	8:8	chol	chol	6:2	ED0
chody	chody	8:9	chody	chody	2:8	ED0
chol	chol	8:10	chol	chol	6:2	ED0
shor	shor	9:1	shol	shol	5:2	ED1
okol	ool	9:2	okol	ool	8:1	ED0
chol	chol	9:3	chol	chol	6:2	ED0
dol	dol	9:4	dol	dol	4:1	ED0
dar	dar	9:6	dar	dar	5:5	ED0
shol	shol	9:7	shol	shol	5:2	ED0
dchor	dchor	9:8	dcho	dcho	2:5	ED1
otcho	ocho	9:9	ochy	ochy	2:4	ED1
dar	dar	9:10	dar	dar	5:5	ED0
shody	shody	9:11	chody	chody	2:8	ED1
dal	dal	10:3	dal	dal	3:8	ED0
chody	chody	10:4	chody	chody	2:8	ED0
schody	schody	10:5	chody	chody	2:8	ED1
pol	ol	10:6	kol	ol	8:3	ED0

This is for f20v.  It's showing that the sources for the words on this page come from these sheets:

  q1s1: +17  [CORE]
  q1s3: +1  [RESIDUE]
  q1s4: +2  [RESIDUE]
  q2s2: +1  [RESIDUE]
  q3s1: +1  [RESIDUE]

Residue are tokens that don't come from the core sheet on the initial check and that's how they're listed in the table.

RESIDUE TOKENS (NEWLY ADDED BY RESIDUE SHEETS)
  choraly | stripped choraly | f20v:8:2 -> chodaly | stripped chodaly | f3v:6:4 | q1s3 | ED1
  choldy | stripped choldy | f20v:1:7 -> cpholdy | stripped choldy | f4r:8:5 | q1s4 | ED0
  shain | stripped shain | f20v:8:1 -> shain | stripped shain | f4r:3:7 | q1s4 | ED0
  choiin | stripped choiin | f20v:2:5 -> choiin | stripped choiin | f10v:2:5 | q2s2 | ED0
  opydy | stripped oydy | f20v:1:8 -> opydy | stripped oydy | f17r:1:3 | q3s1 | ED0

After a recheck is run, all of those residue tokens have parents on quire 1, sheet 1.

RESIDUE CORE-RECHECK
  RESOLVED ED1: choldy | stripped choldy | f20v:1:7 -> chody | stripped chody | f1v:2:8 | q1s1
  RESOLVED ED1: opydy | stripped oydy | f20v:1:8 -> tody | stripped ody | f1v:5:7 | q1s1
  RESOLVED ED1: choiin | stripped choiin | f20v:2:5 -> chtaiin | stripped chaiin | f1r:2:5 | q1s1
  RESOLVED ED1: shain | stripped shain | f20v:8:1 -> shaiin | stripped shaiin | f1r:22:2 | q1s1
  RESOLVED ED2: choraly | stripped choraly | f20v:8:2 -> cthoary | stripped choary | f1r:3:6 | q1s1

Which reduces the retained core source to 1 sheet: quire 1, sheet 1.

Again, only length >= 3 were checked.

f20v provenance test

Green = ED0 / exact copy after gallows stripping
Blue = ED1 after gallows stripping
Orange = ED2 after gallows stripping
Red = no prior match

Core tokens requiring prior source

f20v token	stripped	f20v loc	parent	parent stripped	source	method
faiis	aiis	1:1	kaiin	aiin	f1r:23:6	ED1
okoy	ooy	1:3	potoy	ooy	f1v:5:1	ED0
shy	shy	1:4	kshy	shy	f1r:16:3	ED0
opchy	ochy	1:5	ochy	ochy	f1v:2:4	ED0
choldy	choldy	1:7	cpholdy	choldy	f4r:8:5	ED0
opydy	oydy	1:8	opydy	oydy	f17r:1:3	ED0
sos	sos	2:1	kos	os	f1r:8:7	ED1
ykaiin	yaiin	2:2	ykaiin	yaiin	f1r:3:4	ED0
cheol	cheol	2:3	cheol	cheol	f1v:7:4	ED0
choiin	choiin	2:5	choiin	choiin	f10v:2:5	ED0
checthy	chechy	2:6	chocthy	chochy	f1r:8:4	ED1
chodaiin	chodaiin	2:9	chodaiin	chodaiin	f1r:16:6	ED0
fshodchy	shodchy	5:5	shokchy	shochy	f4v:6:2	ED1
doiiin	doiiin	6:1	daiiin	daiiin	f1r:21:2	ED1
dar	dar	6:3	dar	dar	f1r:23:4	ED0
char	char	6:7	ckhar	char	f1r:2:2	ED0
sheoy	sheoy	7:5	sheky	shey	f1r:3:2	ED1
soaiin	soaiin	7:8	otaiin	oaiin	f1r:4:6	ED1
shain	shain	8:1	shain	shain	f4r:3:7	ED0
choraly	choraly	8:2	chodaly	chodaly	f3v:6:4	ED1
keody	eody	9:2	teody	eody	f1r:10:3	ED0
okoiin	ooiin	11:1	ooiin	ooiin	f1r:4:1	ED0

Same-page local derivations

f20v token	stripped	loc	local parent	parent stripped	parent loc	method
qopy	qoy	1:6	okoy	ooy	1:3	ED1
cphy	chy	1:9	shy	shy	1:4	ED1
chol	chol	2:4	cheol	cheol	2:3	ED1
otol	ool	2:7	okoy	ooy	1:3	ED1
chol	chol	2:8	chol	chol	2:4	ED0
oty	oy	2:10	okoy	ooy	1:3	ED1
okchy	ochy	3:1	opchy	ochy	1:5	ED0
sho	sho	3:2	shy	shy	1:4	ED1
kchol	chol	3:3	chol	chol	2:4	ED0
shol	shol	3:4	chol	chol	2:4	ED1
chcthy	chchy	3:5	checthy	chechy	2:6	ED1
qoty	qoy	3:6	qopy	qoy	1:6	ED0
chy	chy	3:7	cphy	chy	1:9	ED0
tol	ol	3:8	otol	ool	2:7	ED1
shy	shy	3:9	shy	shy	1:4	ED0
qotchy	qochy	3:10	opchy	ochy	1:5	ED1
sho	sho	4:1	sho	sho	3:2	ED0
aiin	aiin	4:3	faiis	aiis	1:1	ED1
shol	shol	4:4	shol	shol	3:4	ED0
daiin	daiin	4:5	ykaiin	yaiin	2:2	ED1
tshol	shol	5:1	shol	shol	3:4	ED0
otor	oor	5:2	okoy	ooy	1:3	ED1
shol	shol	5:3	shol	shol	3:4	ED0
shos	shos	5:4	sos	sos	2:1	ED1
otchy	ochy	5:6	opchy	ochy	1:5	ED0
chcphy	chchy	5:7	chcthy	chchy	3:5	ED0
chockhy	chochy	6:2	checthy	chechy	2:6	ED1
cheockhy	cheochy	6:4	checthy	chechy	2:6	ED1
shos	shos	6:5	shos	shos	5:4	ED0
cheos	cheos	6:6	cheol	cheol	2:3	ED1
cthaiin	chaiin	6:8	choiin	choiin	2:5	ED1
shocthy	shochy	7:1	fshodchy	shodchy	5:5	ED1
sho	sho	7:2	sho	sho	3:2	ED0
cthy	chy	7:3	cphy	chy	1:9	ED0
daiin	daiin	7:4	daiin	daiin	4:5	ED0
tey	ey	7:6	oty	oy	2:10	ED1
sho	sho	8:3	sho	sho	3:2	ED0
chy	chy	8:5	cphy	chy	1:9	ED0
daiin	daiin	8:6	daiin	daiin	4:5	ED0
ykchy	ychy	9:1	opchy	ochy	1:5	ED1
cho	cho	9:3	cphy	chy	1:9	ED1
cthy	chy	9:4	cphy	chy	1:9	ED0
chol	chol	9:5	chol	chol	2:4	ED0
shd	shd	9:6	shy	shy	1:4	ED1
qoty	qoy	9:7	qopy	qoy	1:6	ED0
shokaiin	shoaiin	10:1	soaiin	soaiin	7:8	ED1
chocthy	chochy	10:2	chockhy	chochy	6:2	ED0
chol	chol	10:3	chol	chol	2:4	ED0
daiin	daiin	10:4	daiin	daiin	4:5	ED0
chy	chy	10:5	cphy	chy	1:9	ED0
chor	chor	10:6	chol	chol	2:4	ED1
ety	ey	10:7	tey	ey	7:6	ED0
chey	chey	11:2	cphy	chy	1:9	ED1
cphol	chol	11:3	chol	chol	2:4	ED0
chor	chor	11:4	chor	chor	10:6	ED0

Summary

• Core source assignments: 22
  
• Same-page local derivations: 55
  
• Same-page ED0/copy: 29
  
• Same-page ED1: 26
  

f44r provenance test

Initially, this page reduces to 1 core sheet + 4 more sheets supplying a few extra words.
 
SHEET CLASSIFICATION
  q1s3: +15  [CORE]
  q1s2: +4  [SECONDARY]
  q4s1: +2  [RESIDUE]
  q6s2: +2  [RESIDUE]
  q2s4: +2  [RESIDUE]

RESIDUE TOKENS (NEWLY ADDED BY RESIDUE SHEETS)
  dshor | stripped dshor | f44r:6:1 -> dshor | stripped dshor | f25v:5:3 | q4s1 | ED0
  dchckhy | stripped dchchy | f44r:9:3 -> dchckhy | stripped dchchy | f25r:4:1 | q4s1 | ED0
  ypsholy | stripped ysholy | f44r:1:4 -> yshol | stripped yshol | f42r:8:1 | q6s2 | ED1
  kshotol | stripped shool | f44r:3:3 -> shotol | stripped shool | f42r:17:1 | q6s2 | ED0
  oracphy | stripped orachy | f44r:1:2 -> torchy | stripped orchy | f13r:8:3 | q2s4 | ED1
  oair | stripped oair | f44r:3:1 -> koair | stripped oair | f13v:1:1 | q2s4 | ED0

RESIDUE CORE-RECHECK
  RESOLVED ED2: oracphy | stripped orachy | f44r:1:2 -> octhy | stripped ochy | f3r:12:4 | q1s3
  RESOLVED ED2: ypsholy | stripped ysholy | f44r:1:4 -> shol | stripped shol | f3r:11:2 | q1s3
  RESOLVED ED1: oair | stripped oair | f44r:3:1 -> dair | stripped dair | f3r:19:5 | q1s3
  RESOLVED ED1: kshotol | stripped shool | f44r:3:3 -> shol | stripped shol | f3r:11:2 | q1s3
  RESOLVED ED1: dshor | stripped dshor | f44r:6:1 -> shor | stripped shor | f3r:15:2 | q1s3
  RESOLVED ED1: dchckhy | stripped dchchy | f44r:9:3 -> chckhy | stripped chchy | f6r:2:2 | q1s3

After the residue recheck, this page reduces down to 2 sheets with 0 ED2 or unexplained words.
  q1s3
  q1s2

Green = ED0 / exact copy after gallows stripping
Blue = ED1 after gallows stripping
Orange = ED2 after gallows stripping
Red = no prior match / match not in selected minimum set

Core tokens requiring prior source

f44r token	stripped	f44r loc	parent	parent stripped	source	method
tshodpy	shody	1:1	shody	shody	f7r:7:6	ED0
oracphy	orachy	1:2	torchy	orchy	f13r:8:3	ED1
koees	oees	1:3	oees	oees	f6v:2:1	ED0
ypsholy	ysholy	1:4	yshol	yshol	f42r:8:1	ED1
shy	shy	1:5	shty	shy	f2v:1:9	ED0
ydsh	ydsh	2:1	yksh	ysh	f2r:8:7	ED1
dyeees	dyeees	2:2	deees	deees	f7v:4:8	ED1
yty	yy	2:3	yky	yy	f2r:9:8	ED0
okchey	ochey	2:5	okchey	ochey	f6v:8:3	ED0
qykchey	qychey	2:6	qokchey	qochey	f3r:13:5	ED1
dchy	dchy	2:7	dchy	dchy	f2r:6:6	ED0
oair	oair	3:1	koair	oair	f13v:1:1	ED0
ekokeey	eoeey	3:2	qokeey	qoeey	f3r:13:1	ED1
kshotol	shool	3:3	shotol	shool	f42r:17:1	ED0
otol	ool	3:4	okol	ool	f2r:12:1	ED0
daiin	daiin	3:5	daiin	daiin	f2r:1:3	ED0
ychor	ychor	4:1	ychor	ychor	f6v:8:1	ED0
dam	dam	4:5	dam	dam	f3r:2:3	ED0
cheeky	cheey	5:4	chkeey	cheey	f7v:3:2	ED0
dshor	dshor	6:1	dshor	dshor	f25v:5:3	ED0
qotchy	qochy	6:5	qokchy	qochy	f3v:13:3	ED0
qotsh	qosh	7:1	osh	osh	f3v:12:1	ED1
dchckhy	dchchy	9:3	dchckhy	dchchy	f25r:4:1	ED0
qokchor	qochor	10:1	qokchor	qochor	f3r:12:2	ED0
ytsho	ysho	11:1	ysho	ysho	f6r:14:1	ED0

Same-page local derivations

f44r token	stripped	loc	local parent	parent stripped	parent loc	method
oky	oy	2:4	yty	yy	2:3	ED1
otota	ooa	3:6	otol	ool	3:4	ED1
ykchey	ychey	4:2	okchey	ochey	2:5	ED1
ykchy	ychy	4:3	dchy	dchy	2:7	ED1
chody	chody	4:4	tshodpy	shody	1:1	ED1
toy	oy	5:1	oky	oy	2:4	ED0
qoteey	qoeey	5:2	ekokeey	eoeey	3:2	ED1
chor	chor	5:3	ychor	ychor	4:1	ED1
sheey	sheey	5:5	cheeky	cheey	5:4	ED1
ytey	yey	5:6	yty	yy	2:3	ED1
daiin	daiin	5:7	daiin	daiin	3:5	ED0
ytchol	ychol	6:2	ychor	ychor	4:1	ED1
shy	shy	6:3	shy	shy	1:5	ED0
otchy	ochy	6:6	okchey	ochey	2:5	ED1
dar	dar	6:7	dam	dam	4:5	ED1
oyd	oyd	7:2	oky	oy	2:4	ED1
shol	shol	7:3	kshotol	shool	3:3	ED1
qotshy	qoshy	7:4	qotchy	qochy	6:5	ED1
oyty	oyy	7:5	yty	yy	2:3	ED1
chom	chom	7:6	chor	chor	5:3	ED1
pshy	shy	8:1	shy	shy	1:5	ED0
opchey	ochey	8:2	okchey	ochey	2:5	ED0
qopchy	qochy	8:3	qotchy	qochy	6:5	ED0
ofchey	ochey	8:4	okchey	ochey	2:5	ED0
shol	shol	8:5	shol	shol	7:3	ED0
ykchy	ychy	8:6	ykchy	ychy	4:3	ED0
otchol	ochol	9:1	ytchol	ychol	6:2	ED1
qoky	qoy	9:4	oky	oy	2:4	ED1
qotchy	qochy	9:5	qotchy	qochy	6:5	ED0
qokchy	qochy	9:6	qotchy	qochy	6:5	ED0
qoky	qoy	9:7	qoky	qoy	9:4	ED0
okchy	ochy	10:2	otchy	ochy	6:6	ED0
qoto	qoo	10:3	qoky	qoy	9:4	ED1
ykol	yol	10:4	otol	ool	3:4	ED1
choky	choy	10:5	chody	chody	4:4	ED1
choky	choy	10:6	choky	choy	10:5	ED0
chol	chol	10:7	chor	chor	5:3	ED1
dam	dam	10:8	dam	dam	4:5	ED0
qockhy	qochy	11:2	qotchy	qochy	6:5	ED0
okchody	ochody	11:3	chody	chody	4:4	ED1

Summary

• Core source assignments: 25
  
• Same-page local derivations: 40
  
• Same-page ED0/copy: 16
  
• Same-page ED1: 24
  

And here's what happens when you try the same test on a Scribe 2 page.

SHEET CLASSIFICATION
  q5s2: +27  [CORE]
  q5s1: +3  [RESIDUE]
  q1s3: +2  [RESIDUE]

RESIDUE TOKENS (NEWLY ADDED BY RESIDUE SHEETS)
  okaldy | stripped oaldy | f43r:2:8 -> okaldy | stripped oaldy | f33r:2:4 | q5s1 | ED0
  pshdar | stripped shdar | f43r:10:1 -> tshdar | stripped shdar | f33r:1:1 | q5s1 | ED0
  otary | stripped oary | f43r:11:12 -> okary | stripped oary | f33v:8:12 | q5s1 | ED0
  otolol | stripped oolol | f43r:11:8 -> otolom | stripped oolom | f3r:18:7 | q1s3 | ED1
  shochol | stripped shochol | f43r:13:8 -> shocthol | stripped shochol | f6v:6:2 | q1s3 | ED0

RESIDUE CORE-RECHECK
  RESOLVED ED1: okaldy | stripped oaldy | f43r:2:8 -> okaly | stripped oaly | f34r:13:5 | q5s2
  RESOLVED ED1: pshdar | stripped shdar | f43r:10:1 -> chdar | stripped chdar | f34v:8:7 | q5s2
  NOT RESOLVED: otolol | stripped oolol | f43r:11:8
  RESOLVED ED1: otary | stripped oary | f43r:11:12 -> okaly | stripped oaly | f34r:13:5 | q5s2
  RESOLVED ED2: shochol | stripped shochol | f43r:13:8 -> shotchy | stripped shochy | f34r:8:1 | q5s2

Most words still reduced down to 2 sheets.
q5s2
q1s3

There is one word that can't be resolved by ED1 or ED2, "otolol".  And, there are 9 words that don't cleanly reduce down to a minimum sheet limit.  They do have parents and they can be found, but it's not as easy to reduce as Scribe 1.  Exactly what this is saying at the moment, I'm not sure.  If Scribe 2 used the same method as Scribe 1, their selection of source sheets was a good bit wider than Scribe 1.

Now, all these tests were run with Takahashi. If I instead use ZL transcription for this page, and allow for more initial sheets to be found in the first run, it can be reduced down to 3 sheets

q5s2
q5s1 -> added 
q1s3

with "qosheckhey" being the only word it couldn't resolve to having an ED1 or ED2 parent.

Regardless of which transcription is used to locate the source, you can still see that the "proposed" same-page copy mutate process is on par with Scribe 1 pages.


f43r provenance test

Green = ED0 / exact copy after gallows stripping
Blue = ED1 after gallows stripping
Orange = ED2 after gallows stripping
Red = no prior match / match not in selected minimum set

Core tokens requiring prior source

f43r token	stripped	f43r loc	parent	parent stripped	source	method
tarodaiin	arodaiin	1:1	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
ytedy	yedy	1:2	ykedy	yedy	f33v:4:8	ED0
chody	chody	1:3	tchody	chody	f6v:6:1	ED0
ofchtar	ochar	1:4	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
chcphedy	chchedy	1:5	chcthedy	chchedy	f34r:14:11	ED0
ypar	yar	1:6	ykar	yar	f33v:5:11	ED0
shol	shol	1:7	shol	shol	f3r:11:2	ED0
folor	olor	1:8	olor	olor	f39r:12:2	ED0
aiin	aiin	1:9	aiin	aiin	f3r:20:6	ED0
cphhy	chhy	1:10	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
oteol	oeol	2:2	oteol	oeol	f3r:16:1	ED0
okaldy	oaldy	2:8	okaldy	oaldy	f33r:2:4	ED0
daral	daral	2:9	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
otchdy	ochdy	2:10	otchdy	ochdy	f34r:10:4	ED0
yty	yy	3:1	yty	yy	f3v:13:4	ED0
she	she	3:4	shek	she	f34r:15:4	ED0
qotydy	qoydy	3:9	qokody	qoody	f3r:13:4	ED1
qotaly	qoaly	4:7	qopal	qoal	f3r:1:2	ED1
shekody	sheody	5:2	sheody	sheody	f34r:2:2	ED0
qotar	qoar	5:4	qoar	qoar	f6v:1:5	ED0
choetchy	choechy	5:7	chocthy	chochy	f6r:4:5	ED1
pshesy	shesy	7:1	shey	shey	f3r:11:5	ED1
kshdy	shdy	7:3	shdy	shdy	f33v:4:2	ED0
shocphhy	shochhy	7:8	shotchy	shochy	f34r:8:1	ED1
dytydy	dyydy	7:9	dydy	dydy	f39r:6:7	ED1
qoiiin	qoiiin	8:5	qokaiin	qoaiin	f39r:8:3	ED1
sheeeky	sheeey	8:6	sheey	sheey	f33v:8:1	ED1
old	old	8:10	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
dshedy	dshedy	9:1	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
odain	odain	9:5	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
pshdar	shdar	10:1	tshdar	shdar	f33r:1:1	ED0
qockhhdy	qochhdy	10:6	qokchdy	qochdy	f34r:7:6	ED1
otolol	oolol	11:8	otolom	oolom	f3r:18:7	ED1
otary	oary	11:12	okary	oary	f3v:10:6	ED0
qokol	qool	12:3	qokol	qool	f3r:5:1	ED0
qosheckhhy	qoshechhy	13:2	NO PRIOR MATCH	—	—	NO MATCH
odeedy	odeedy	13:3	okeedy	oeedy	f33v:10:5	ED1
qeokehy	qeoehy	13:4	qokeey	qoeey	f3r:13:1	ED2
shodody	shodody	13:7	MATCH EXISTS BUT NOT IN SELECTED MINIMUM SET	—	—	NOT SELECTED
shochol	shochol	13:8	shocthol	shochol	f6v:6:2	ED0
chckhhhy	chchhhy	14:5	chcfhhy	chchhy	f39r:8:7	ED1

Same-page local derivations

f43r token	stripped	loc	local parent	parent stripped	parent loc	method
dar	dar	1:11	ypar	yar	1:6	ED1
yteody	yeody	2:1	ytedy	yedy	1:2	ED1
ytedy	yedy	2:3	ytedy	yedy	1:2	ED0
chety	chey	2:5	cphhy	chhy	1:10	ED1
dar	dar	2:6	dar	dar	1:11	ED0
aiir	aiir	2:7	aiin	aiin	1:9	ED1
daiin	daiin	2:11	aiin	aiin	1:9	ED1
dal	dal	2:12	dar	dar	1:11	ED1
yty	yy	3:2	yty	yy	3:1	ED0
oty	oy	3:3	yty	yy	3:1	ED1
ody	ody	3:5	oty	oy	3:3	ED1
olor	olor	3:6	folor	olor	1:8	ED0
kaiin	aiin	3:7	aiin	aiin	1:9	ED0
chky	chy	3:8	cphhy	chhy	1:10	ED1
dar	dar	3:10	dar	dar	1:11	ED0
aiin	aiin	3:11	aiin	aiin	1:9	ED0
ykam	yam	3:12	ypar	yar	1:6	ED1
ytey	yey	4:1	ytedy	yedy	1:2	ED1
tedy	edy	4:2	ytedy	yedy	1:2	ED1
kar	ar	4:3	ypar	yar	1:6	ED1
cholty	choly	4:6	chody	chody	1:3	ED1
chedy	chedy	4:8	chody	chody	1:3	ED1
oty	oy	4:9	oty	oy	3:3	ED0
otam	oam	4:10	ykam	yam	3:12	ED1
ykor	yor	5:1	ypar	yar	1:6	ED1
qotody	qoody	5:3	qotydy	qoydy	3:9	ED1
okedy	oedy	5:5	ytedy	yedy	1:2	ED1
dar	dar	5:6	dar	dar	1:11	ED0
dam	dam	5:8	dar	dar	1:11	ED1
ytam	yam	5:9	ykam	yam	3:12	ED0
kchedy	chedy	6:1	chedy	chedy	4:8	ED0
chedy	chedy	6:2	chedy	chedy	4:8	ED0
daly	daly	6:3	dal	dal	2:12	ED1
cheody	cheody	6:4	chody	chody	1:3	ED1
otey	oey	7:2	oty	oy	3:3	ED1
opchdy	ochdy	7:4	otchdy	ochdy	2:10	ED0
kedar	edar	7:5	dar	dar	1:11	ED1
okedy	oedy	7:6	okedy	oedy	5:5	ED0
chdy	chdy	7:7	chody	chody	1:3	ED1
pchdy	chdy	7:10	chdy	chdy	7:7	ED0
kedy	edy	7:11	tedy	edy	4:2	ED0
dam	dam	7:12	dam	dam	5:8	ED0
ytchedy	ychedy	8:1	chedy	chedy	4:8	ED1
chedy	chedy	8:2	chedy	chedy	4:8	ED0
cheody	cheody	8:3	cheody	cheody	6:4	ED0
shy	shy	8:4	she	she	3:4	ED1
chedy	chedy	8:7	chedy	chedy	4:8	ED0
shy	shy	8:8	shy	shy	8:4	ED0
otaiin	oaiin	8:9	aiin	aiin	1:9	ED1
qotedy	qoedy	9:2	qotydy	qoydy	3:9	ED1
dor	dor	9:3	dar	dar	1:11	ED1
cheey	cheey	9:4	chety	chey	2:5	ED1
shed	shed	10:2	she	she	3:4	ED1
ody	ody	10:3	ody	ody	3:5	ED0
qotedy	qoedy	10:4	qotedy	qoedy	9:2	ED0
yfchdy	ychdy	10:5	otchdy	ochdy	2:10	ED1
opchdy	ochdy	10:7	otchdy	ochdy	2:10	ED0
daiin	daiin	10:8	daiin	daiin	2:11	ED0
qokedy	qoedy	10:9	qotedy	qoedy	9:2	ED0
qotar	qoar	10:10	qotar	qoar	5:4	ED0
ytchedy	ychedy	11:1	ytchedy	ychedy	8:1	ED0
shol	shol	11:3	shol	shol	1:7	ED0
toldy	oldy	11:4	okaldy	oaldy	2:8	ED1
shody	shody	11:5	chody	chody	1:3	ED1
otchdy	ochdy	11:6	otchdy	ochdy	2:10	ED0
shdy	shdy	11:7	kshdy	shdy	7:3	ED0
shd	shd	11:9	she	she	3:4	ED1
olky	oly	11:10	oty	oy	3:3	ED1
ytol	yol	11:11	ykor	yor	5:1	ED1
cheky	chey	11:13	chety	chey	2:5	ED0
dor	dor	12:1	dor	dor	9:3	ED0
shol	shol	12:2	shol	shol	1:7	ED0
shedy	shedy	12:4	chedy	chedy	4:8	ED1
qotedy	qoedy	12:5	qotedy	qoedy	9:2	ED0
qokehdy	qoehdy	12:6	qotedy	qoedy	9:2	ED1
qokody	qoody	12:7	qotody	qoody	5:3	ED0
okehdy	oehdy	12:8	otchdy	ochdy	2:10	ED1
otedy	oedy	12:9	okedy	oedy	5:5	ED0
shedy	shedy	12:10	shedy	shedy	12:4	ED0
oty	oy	12:11	oty	oy	3:3	ED0
yty	yy	12:12	yty	yy	3:1	ED0
saiin	saiin	12:14	aiin	aiin	1:9	ED1
tshed	shed	13:1	shed	shed	10:2	ED0
qotedy	qoedy	13:5	qotedy	qoedy	9:2	ED0
daiin	daiin	13:6	daiin	daiin	2:11	ED0
chckhy	chchy	13:9	cphhy	chhy	1:10	ED1
ykedy	yedy	13:10	ytedy	yedy	1:2	ED0
ykeody	yeody	14:1	yteody	yeody	2:1	ED0
checkhy	chechy	14:2	choetchy	choechy	5:7	ED1
chotehy	choehy	14:3	choetchy	choechy	5:7	ED1
odain	odain	14:4	odain	odain	9:5	ED0
aiin	aiin	14:6	aiin	aiin	1:9	ED0

I don't think this shows anything at all. Voynichese is quite regular: the number of common characters is small and their sequences are quite rigid. Most of the vocabulary has many ED1 words. This is a property of the word structure. Let's ask a different question, how many words on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have only one ED1 source on f1r, so they can be traced to a single source? Also, I don't understand the rationale for stripping the gallows, this looks like a cheap trick.

(oshfdk is a little more concise, but I wrote this before seeing their reply and gets at a few more things here)

(31-05-2026, 12:57 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Torsten Timm has pointed out, it's likely a very human method which is not going to be duplicated in code easily.

One might even say it's not going to replicate in code easily!

No one is arguing that there aren't clusters of words in short edit distance, nor that a process which captures that fact can't [edited from "can"] model the text's statistics. It is interesting, and serves as a broad-ranging rebuttal to a number of statistical analyses that had been purported to suggest meaningfulness, that those edit networks plus those constraints have enough information to reconstitute those features.

This is a different claim:

(31-05-2026, 12:57 PM)Dunsel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interpretation: This table shows that with the exception of 1 token, all other tokens are a product of copy/mutate from f1r.

When you claim the tokens in fv1 are the product of such and such a process, you are no longer claiming to have modeled them. You are claiming to know as a matter of historical fact what the scribe did. This is an extremely strong claim for the banal reason that it's hard to prove what someone did 600 years ago, but there are several other factors that make inferring from the model hard.

These models are in a sense "closely held" to the source text. At risk of broadsiding Torsten, copy-mutate was selected specifically because it reproduces the short edit distances. To the limits of his and his coauthor's argument, that is fine, but it is hardly an emergent property---and without close reading his paper for it, I don't recall him asserting it is. Likewise, the fact that both your models force words through Voynich-like networks of words at rates derived from summary statistics gleaned from the manuscript means that they are likely mutating through spaces of words that have similar properties. The reason why Torsten's paper has force, and why it has the conclusions it does, is that it shows that information is sufficient to produce a Voynich-like text, and so an auto-citation process that has substantially similar properties would be expected to result in a statistically Voynich-like text. Timm and Schinner do not claim the text in the Voynich were produced that way, merely that it is a serious possibility; in fact, they rule out a very literal interpretation of their model! It is entirely possible that their and your models depend enough on patterns that arose from an underlying process interacting with meaningful text that it is reproducing them without reproducing the method. Ruling this is out is very hard. 

A genuine path forward for these models would be to show that they depend less on the Voynich's summary statistics. Your analysis of the gallows letters, which I do not believe is shared by Timm and Schinner's model, is a case in point. If it could be shown that line start gallows letters were appearing more often at line start because of some simple rule that did not immediately imply the distribution, e.g. that it was emergent, it would lend credence to the idea that these features were dependent on simple rules undergirding copy-mutate rather than the distributions arising in the Voynich for unproved reasons. Your argument (section 4.2 of your paper) is explicitly that these features were inserted based on observations of the manuscript, so you have defined the mutate process to have these properties, and are actually assuming the consequent when you claim to have explained it.

In fairness to everyone, it may be the case that there is no simple rule underlying the gallows distribution. It could be that the scribes liked them line start because they looked like capital letters at the start of lines in humanist manuscripts. But this is what I'm driving at. If that's all there is to it, it may be the best we can do is say that their process had a bias towards gallows in line start words and we may not be able to formally separate premise (we observe the bias) from conclusion (it is a product of an arbitrary choice).

By the by, if you are in fact "reproducing" the Voynich, failure to incorporate Currier's curve-line system observations and similar analyses seems like fair game to me. It also strikes me as the kind of "observable orthographic structure" you say the model addresses in in 7.6 of your paper. This is largely an aside to the main point here, which is that I don't think you're proving your interpretation, but I'm not clear why statistics about letter bases are not part of the orthographic structures in the Voynich.

(31-05-2026, 02:40 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think this shows anything at all. Voynichese is quite regular: the number of common characters is small and their sequences are quite rigid. Most of the vocabulary has many ED1 words. This is a property of the word structure. Let's ask a different question, how many words on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have only one ED1 source on f1r, so they can be traced to a single source? Also, I don't understand the rationale for stripping the gallows, this looks like a cheap trick.

I think you're focusing on a different question than the one I'm testing.

If the claim were simply that many Voynich words have ED1 neighbors, I would agree that this is not very interesting. Given the character inventory and regular word structure, ED1 relationships are expected. The purpose of the provenance test is not to show that an ED1 source exists somewhere in the manuscript. The results are showing that after same-page copy/mutate are removed, the remaining source words repeatedly collapse into a very small number of sheets as the source of those pages. I can easily imagine a scribe with a completed sheet in front of them and using that as the source for the page they're working on. That is what the evidence is pointing to.

As for gallows stripping, that was done because gallows are overwhelmingly productive in prefix positions. If gallows behave as a frequent prefix operation rather than as ordinary internal characters, then treating chol, kchol, tchol, etc. as completely unrelated forms obscures rather than reveals the family structure.  Whether that assumption is justified is certainly open to discussion, but it was not introduced simply to manufacture matches. Thus far, I do not believe many researchers have seriously considered the possibility that gallows may function primarily as a decorative addition rather than as a core lexical element. I am testing whether they might be. If removing the gallows destroys the structure, then the hypothesis fails. If removing them reveals stable word families, source relationships, and copy/mutate chains that remain consistent across pages, then that is evidence that the gallows may not be carrying the same kind of information as the rest of the word. So far, stripping gallows has not weakened the provenance results. If anything, it has made the underlying relationships easier to see. So, perhaps the cheap trick is not mine to claim. Perhaps gallows is a cheap trick of the scribes' invention.

Your question about how many words on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have only a single ED1 source is a reasonable one, but it is a different test from the provenance analysis shown above.