The Voynich Ninja

Are there any publications of the RAMAN and XRF spectra from the McCrone Ass. Inc. tests? It might be interesting to compare them with the spectral database of Dr. Marina Bicchieri, who specializes primarily in IGI.

(25-04-2026, 09:38 AM)Fabrizio Salani Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are there any publications of the RAMAN and XRF spectra from the McCrone Ass. Inc. tests? It might be interesting to compare them with the spectral database of Dr. Marina Bicchieri, who specializes primarily in IGI.

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All the best, --stolfi

(25-04-2026, 03:14 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Therefore, when reading any paper (like that one) about properties of IGI on medieval manuscripts, one must read carefully to see whether they have actually determined that the ink is IGI, or just assumed that it was.

Is there a test that would beyond reasonable doubt confirm for you that some writing is in iron gall ink?

(25-04-2026, 03:56 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is there a test that would beyond reasonable doubt confirm for you that some writing is in iron gall ink?

And is there a test that would beyond reasonable doubt confirm to you that some writing is not iron-gall ink?  When it is you who define "reasonable doubt"?  

Seriously, AFAIK there is no non-destructive test that would positively identify iron-gall ink on a manuscript.  It is an amorphous polymer consisting of an irregular 3D network of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. molecules (which are themselves quite variable) joined by iron(III) ions.  X-ray diffraction should not give any characteristic signal, and X-ray fluorescence would only say "it contains iron, carbon, oxygen, etc.  

A high-resolution infrared spectrum (Raman spectrum) could detect specific bonds and sub-units in the substance, like carbon-oxygen, maybe the benzene rings; and that could prove that the polymer units are tannin molecules.  But I don't know how big of a sample that would require.

But I would satisfied with a moderately detailed absorption spectrum in the range 700-1500 nm, that, compared to spectra of writings that are certain to be iron-gall (not just assumed) and certain to be ocher, can only match the former and not the latter.

I suppose that a "slightly destructive" test could be to shine a thin laser beam onto the writing, enough to break down and vaporize the tannin, and analyze the fragments with a mass spectrometer. 

Another "slightly destructive" test is simply to try to wash off some of the writing by rubbing with a wet Q-tip.  Iron-gall should not budge, while ochre or sienna (or any of the colored paints and inks) should soften and come off almost completely.  (And I am confident that the VMS ink is not iron-gall because this test has already been made by accident, e.g. on f103r.)

There are simple chemical tests that could positively identify iron-gall ink.  But they would probably require scraping off several words worth of text.

All the best, --stolfi

(25-04-2026, 07:55 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And is there a test that would beyond reasonable doubt confirm to you that some writing is not iron-gall ink?  When it is you who define "reasonable doubt"?  

If I define reasonable doubt, then a single undisputed expert opinion by a lab that has experience in analyzing artifacts like that would suffice. As far as I'm concerned McCrone's conclusions remain undisputed so far, and would likewise have remained undisputed if they have called it not iron gall in the first place, unless another lab runs their own tests and casts doubts on the conclusions of McCrone's.

(25-04-2026, 07:55 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another "slightly destructive" test is simply to try to wash off some of the writing by rubbing with a wet Q-tip.  Iron-gall should not budge, while ochre or sienna (or any of the colored paints and inks) should soften and come off almost completely.  (And I am confident that the VMS ink is not iron-gall because this test has already been made by accident, e.g. on f103r.)

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not a wet qtip but some substance possibly acidic and hot (assuming some stew), which penetrated the page and which is also very close in color to the actual ink. A very good test happened on f103v, where this substance obviously sipped through to leave a mark on f104r, but didn't visibly disturb the ink.

(25-04-2026, 08:18 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I'm concerned McCrone's conclusions remain undisputed so far, and would likewise have remained undisputed if they have called it not iron gall in the first place, unless another lab runs their own tests and casts doubts on the conclusions of McCrone's.

Okay, so we have very different opinions about experts in general and McCrone in particular.  I don't know what else I could say to change your mind, so let's leave it at that.

Quote:f103r is not a wet qtip but some substance possibly acidic and hot (assuming some stew), which penetrated the page

Tannin is an acid, and when it reacts with green vitriol it releases sulfuric acid.  This is not a problem for writing on vellum, since vellum is relatively resistant to the acid and anyway it is usually impregnated with chalk, that will neutralize the acid.  It is a problem when IGI is used on paper, since the acid speeds up the decay of the paper -- to the point that the writing may fall off, leaving neat letter-shaped holes.  I saw several examples of that in Kircher's Carteggio.

The point is that IGI should not care about the little acid in tomato sauce.  Much less the non-acidic goulash, or whatever that stain is.

(That stain is one of the many missed opportunities in the McCrone examination.  It would be useful to know its composition.  If it is tomato, it would indicate that the clumsy clod who dribbled it was from Italy -- although maybe not North Italy.  If it is goulash, the Austro-Hungarian Empire may be a more likely Origin Theory for that stain.  And if it is a modern synthetic sauce that only became available in the early 1900s, like titanium-based ketchup, it would be strong evidence that the stain was forged by Wilfrid.)

Quote:  and which is also very close in color to the actual ink.

That is irrelevant, since the ink was quite clearly erased inside f103v the big stain on f103r -- not just masked by the color of the sauce. 

Quote:A very good test happened on f103v, where this substance obviously sipped through to leave a mark on f104r, but didn't visibly disturb the ink.

As I discussed at length You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the sauce apparently had two components, one water-based ("polar") and one oil-based ("apolar").  It was the watery component that softened the ink on f103r, which presumably was wiped out when the stain was finally cleaned.  

But vellum is treated to be weakly hydrophobic, to prevent the ink from soaking into it and flaring out.  Thus  that watery component mostly stayed put where it was smeared by the closing of the book, leaving a a darker stain with a sharp border.  Very little of it, if any went through the vellum.  

The oily component, on the other hand, soaked into the vellum and spread out, creating a fuzzy light orangish-tan halo around the stains. It also went through the vellum to f103v, creating a fuzzy light orange stain, offsetted onto f104r, and even went through again to f104v.  But, being oily, it did not soften the water-based text ink.

All the best, --stolfi

This is great research.

Does titanium-based ink become translucent under a certain UV especially x-rays? I'm guessing yes and IGI no.  Do you think Yale is done with running tests on the manuscript for a date range and if they are not maybe they should not use McCrone again.  They did little testing on the ink, am I assuming so.  I use to think that stain was coffee thanks for educating me Stolfi.

Are you 100% sure there is no IGI?

(26-04-2026, 05:12 AM)oeesordy Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does titanium-based ink become translucent under a certain UV especially x-rays?..

I was writing a long reply explaining what I know of titanium IGI UV Xrays etc.  But after a page or so I hit the wrong button, the draft was erased, and there seems to be no way to bring it back. 

This wonderful forum software popped up a warning every five seconds saying "draft saved automatically".  And there are indeed some 20 "editor-saved" drafts listed on my profile.  But not the one I just lost. In fact they are only a fraction of all the messages that I lost for similar accidents in the past. 

Oh well.  I can't type it all again now, sorry.

Quote:Are you 100% sure there is no IGI?

I am fairly sure -- say, 95% -- that the original ink was not IGI but a watercolor-like brown ink, a suspension of an iron-based mineral pigment in water with some binder like gum arabic.  Like all the colored inks used in medieval manuscripts, and like the red text on f67r2.

But the folio numbers are probably IGI, and I would guess that the quire numbers are lampblack (india) ink.  

And there is some dark writing scattered all over the manuscript that is probably IGI (and looks like it in the infrared images).  Namely the work of the infamous Boobs BEEEEPer.  Which apparently includes the Habsburg crown and the "showercap" diadems, the "Fallopian tubes" of f77v, and many more details -- including many BEEEPed words and glyphs on the text.

All the best, --stolfi

(26-04-2026, 01:32 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:  and which is also very close in color to the actual ink.

That is irrelevant, since the ink was quite clearly erased inside You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- not just masked by the color of the sauce. 

103v? or 103r?
And how exactly did you determine that? Looking at faint writing elsewhere I'm not sure it would be visible under this stain at all.

(26-04-2026, 05:40 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.103v? or 103r?

Yes, f103r, sorry.

Quote:

(26-04-2026, 01:32 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the ink was quite clearly erased inside You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- not just masked by the color of the sauce.

And how exactly did you determine that? Looking at faint writing elsewhere I'm not sure it would be visible under this stain at all.

I suppose you will never agree -- but the stain is transparent and not that dark, and the writing outside the stain not that faint.   By adding an absorbing layer on top of the ink and darkening the vellum under it, the staining stuff should have made the writing darker,  not fainter.  

All the best, --stolfi